Why does Heathrow/Gatwick shut down at first sight of a snow flake every time?
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Why does Heathrow/Gatwick shut down at first sight of a snow flake every time?
Maybe it's the Swede in me, but Arlanda airport in Stockholm, or Kastrup or any of the Scandinavian airports do not shut down for anything else than maybe galloping glaciers moving in. Even Kiruna and all the northernmost airports well above the polar circle are open all day and all night, all winter.
They run a bunch of snow plows abreast between landings and all is fine.
What is it with the UK airports that make them cope so bad?
They run a bunch of snow plows abreast between landings and all is fine.
What is it with the UK airports that make them cope so bad?
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You've answered your own question....they are used to it, and equipped for it, and so the return on any investment in snow clearing/de-icing equipment is obvious. For the one or two days a year that UK airfields are affected it's not so obvious.
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You cannot compare UK with Scandanavia for snow clearing. The snow in the UK is classed as 'Wet snow' not the fine powdery stuff they have elsewhere. They don't for instance necessarily need to get down to 'Black top' to be open. Their snow can also been blown with snow blowers...Ours cannot..
Runways take time to open because the wet snow produces slush and this is just as bad as the snow for a lot of aircraft.
De icing fluid cannot be laid until the snow and slush is cleared....
People continually question why the airports shut. Well it's because of safety and the fact that a lot of people are working very hard to make it safe and get it open ASAP.
Even if you know it's coming you can do nothing about it until it's here....If you use UK airports in the winter...Best get used to it.
Runways take time to open because the wet snow produces slush and this is just as bad as the snow for a lot of aircraft.
De icing fluid cannot be laid until the snow and slush is cleared....
People continually question why the airports shut. Well it's because of safety and the fact that a lot of people are working very hard to make it safe and get it open ASAP.
Even if you know it's coming you can do nothing about it until it's here....If you use UK airports in the winter...Best get used to it.
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Had a look at the Scandanavian airport runway construction . The majority of these runways have been designed for severe weather and dealing with the blizards . I think this winter in the UK has been quoted as being the coldest for many decades
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In all fairness, HEathrow keeps on going - runways are deiced overnight and this appears to be quite effective. the main limiting factor is the shortage of deicing equipment for aircraft - outbond delays are caused by delays in deicing aircraft which have a knock-on effect on inbound aircraft waiting for stands and so the snowball effect of this continues and ends up in flight cancellations or delays.
The ideal solution would be some form of drive-through deicing rig. That of couse has many drawbacks including where to site it, what order and who is allowed to use it, charging structure, and so on... but mostly the problem is stumping up the cash for such a facilty to deal with a seldom occuring situation (though with climate change, who knows...business opprtunity, NATS?
)
The ideal solution would be some form of drive-through deicing rig. That of couse has many drawbacks including where to site it, what order and who is allowed to use it, charging structure, and so on... but mostly the problem is stumping up the cash for such a facilty to deal with a seldom occuring situation (though with climate change, who knows...business opprtunity, NATS?
)
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@ Call100:
I work at Copenhagen and I'm sorry to disappoint you. The snow we have in Scandinavia is not always white dry Disney snow that can be blown away. We have sleet, freezing rain and quite often wet snow.
But as Gonzo correctly points out, it's got alot to do with being used to dealing with it. In Cph we probably have alot more vehicles and personnel standing by to deal with clearing the rwys and taxiways.
Another factor is definitely the airport layout. At Gatwick there is one rwy. At Cph we have parallel rwys plus a crossing rwy. We usually use the left parallet for arrivals and the right parallel for departures. When the rwy inspection car lets us know it's time to clear the rwy for snow/ice/slush, we simply reduce capacity and use single rwy until both are cleared - while this reduces capacity for a while it rarely causes diversions due to weather or airport closure for that matter.
And speaking of wet snow. Because of some technicality we always broadcast breaking action figures as unreliable when wet snow is involved. That word - unreliable - always caused issues with the British operators.
An EZY pilot told me one time that company procedures do not allow them to land when the word - unreliable - is a part of the breaking action figures.
At that time he was in a holding pattern inside Cph TMA waiting for new figures and requesting the Malmo figures - both were covered with wet snow and therefore contained the word - unreliable.
Needless to say he had almost had enough at this point - who can blame him. We obv did our best to provide as much info as possible, including pilot reports from the a/c that were landing. Eventually he gave it a go and landed - just like everyone else.
I know it's a matter of safety and that is also our main priority, but if everybody else can land, why do the British operators need extra assurance?
@ SATAN:
You mention a "drive-through" de-icing rig. How are a/c de-iced in Britain? At the gate?
In Cph we have two separate de-icing platforms. Adjacent to the rwys, capable of handling 3 medium a/c at a time or 2 heavies.
If de-icing is handled at the gate in Britain, then it's not wonder it causes a backlog
Just my two cents
From a Dane stuck in Vegas on day two due to the closure of Gatwick yesterday
I work at Copenhagen and I'm sorry to disappoint you. The snow we have in Scandinavia is not always white dry Disney snow that can be blown away. We have sleet, freezing rain and quite often wet snow.
But as Gonzo correctly points out, it's got alot to do with being used to dealing with it. In Cph we probably have alot more vehicles and personnel standing by to deal with clearing the rwys and taxiways.
Another factor is definitely the airport layout. At Gatwick there is one rwy. At Cph we have parallel rwys plus a crossing rwy. We usually use the left parallet for arrivals and the right parallel for departures. When the rwy inspection car lets us know it's time to clear the rwy for snow/ice/slush, we simply reduce capacity and use single rwy until both are cleared - while this reduces capacity for a while it rarely causes diversions due to weather or airport closure for that matter.
And speaking of wet snow. Because of some technicality we always broadcast breaking action figures as unreliable when wet snow is involved. That word - unreliable - always caused issues with the British operators.
An EZY pilot told me one time that company procedures do not allow them to land when the word - unreliable - is a part of the breaking action figures.
At that time he was in a holding pattern inside Cph TMA waiting for new figures and requesting the Malmo figures - both were covered with wet snow and therefore contained the word - unreliable.
Needless to say he had almost had enough at this point - who can blame him. We obv did our best to provide as much info as possible, including pilot reports from the a/c that were landing. Eventually he gave it a go and landed - just like everyone else.
I know it's a matter of safety and that is also our main priority, but if everybody else can land, why do the British operators need extra assurance?
@ SATAN:
You mention a "drive-through" de-icing rig. How are a/c de-iced in Britain? At the gate?
In Cph we have two separate de-icing platforms. Adjacent to the rwys, capable of handling 3 medium a/c at a time or 2 heavies.
If de-icing is handled at the gate in Britain, then it's not wonder it causes a backlog
Just my two cents
From a Dane stuck in Vegas on day two due to the closure of Gatwick yesterday
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If I was the pilot of an aircraft and I was told the braking action was unreliable, I think I would be having second thoughts as well; especially if I was the first to land 
At least 'poor' lets you know there is braking action, albeit reduced. Unreliable means that to me that there might, or might not be, braking action!
At least 'poor' lets you know there is braking action, albeit reduced. Unreliable means that to me that there might, or might not be, braking action!
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MorfArsenal (took a lot to type the Arsenal bit
)
Thanks for the insight.....As you say expenditure would be the major difference, along with manpower. Economics rule and for the amount of snow we get per year the investment would rule out the same commitment as airports which get more consistent snow throughout the winter. Once it hits us though we do give it a good go.
Yes, having only one runway doesn't help us.
Interesting comments on the braking action figures. We don't take braking action tests in snow or slush. If it's Snow it's shut. Even slush is cleared to be almost insignificant before opening. When braking action figures are available we are no longer allowed to give them out to aircraft and just report Good, medium poor, etc.
You say 'When wet snow is involved', does this mean that you do have dry snow at times? I've heard that the dry snow in the more northern climes can actually provide a fairly good landing surface if required. Hard to believe, but what do I know??
I wouldn't mind experiencing some winter ops in the more northern areas of Europe or Canada to see how it's all done and planned for. Your never too experienced to learn something...
Happy new year.
)Thanks for the insight.....As you say expenditure would be the major difference, along with manpower. Economics rule and for the amount of snow we get per year the investment would rule out the same commitment as airports which get more consistent snow throughout the winter. Once it hits us though we do give it a good go.
Yes, having only one runway doesn't help us.
Interesting comments on the braking action figures. We don't take braking action tests in snow or slush. If it's Snow it's shut. Even slush is cleared to be almost insignificant before opening. When braking action figures are available we are no longer allowed to give them out to aircraft and just report Good, medium poor, etc.
You say 'When wet snow is involved', does this mean that you do have dry snow at times? I've heard that the dry snow in the more northern climes can actually provide a fairly good landing surface if required. Hard to believe, but what do I know??
I wouldn't mind experiencing some winter ops in the more northern areas of Europe or Canada to see how it's all done and planned for. Your never too experienced to learn something...
Happy new year.
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HD
Heathrow has the luxury of 2 runways (3 when you were working) and no traffic at night as well, which means unhampered, continuous snow clearance overnight
Braking Action:
Was working the other night when a crew asked for the braking action at EGGW (or it may have been EGSS).
The approach controller asked but then told me that the airport authority doesn't even pass out 'good, medium, poor' etc even though they do MuMeter runs.
So much for helping our 'customers'
Heathrow has the luxury of 2 runways (3 when you were working) and no traffic at night as well, which means unhampered, continuous snow clearance overnight
Braking Action:
Was working the other night when a crew asked for the braking action at EGGW (or it may have been EGSS).
The approach controller asked but then told me that the airport authority doesn't even pass out 'good, medium, poor' etc even though they do MuMeter runs.
So much for helping our 'customers'
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@ anotherthing:
The braking action figures are also broadcast with the numbers, which obviously translates into poor/medium/good. But as mentioned also described as unreliable.
Since I'm not the one sat in the cockpit I obviously understand the concerns when you're told the braking action is unreliable. But EZY wasn't the first or the only one landing and I guess the reports we forwarded to him from his esteemed colleagues helped him make the decision to give it a go
@ call100:
It's really down to the temperature what kind of snow we get. But since Copenhagen is relatively far south in Scandinavia, it often lies just around freezing point in the winter months.
I wouldn't know anything about landing on dry snow. In my experience the snow isn't allowed to settle before the "conga line" takes center stage
The braking action figures are also broadcast with the numbers, which obviously translates into poor/medium/good. But as mentioned also described as unreliable.
Since I'm not the one sat in the cockpit I obviously understand the concerns when you're told the braking action is unreliable. But EZY wasn't the first or the only one landing and I guess the reports we forwarded to him from his esteemed colleagues helped him make the decision to give it a go
@ call100:
It's really down to the temperature what kind of snow we get. But since Copenhagen is relatively far south in Scandinavia, it often lies just around freezing point in the winter months.
I wouldn't know anything about landing on dry snow. In my experience the snow isn't allowed to settle before the "conga line" takes center stage
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MorfArsenal
Unfortunately that's what we do here - de-icing at the gate. A man with a hose sprays fluid from a cradle lift/"cherry picker" attached to a deicing truck. It is not unkown for aircraft to be ready but number 8 in their company's deicing queue. Slots are often difficult to meet or plan for.
Even worse is when de-iced aircraft need to be done again when holdover times are reached or exceed!
Unfortunately that's what we do here - de-icing at the gate. A man with a hose sprays fluid from a cradle lift/"cherry picker" attached to a deicing truck. It is not unkown for aircraft to be ready but number 8 in their company's deicing queue. Slots are often difficult to meet or plan for.
Even worse is when de-iced aircraft need to be done again when holdover times are reached or exceed!
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as 'Wet snow' not the fine powdery stuff they have elsewhere
Problems during winter condtions is to some extent down to equipment at the airfield, but mostly down to knowlede IMHO.
Even if Gatwick and Heathrow got equipped to the same level as Oslo or Stockholm, they still would have issues, because their crews would always be inexperienced. Airfield winter maint. is an art, and the difference between well and poorly trained crews is massive.
At Oslo Gardermoen they need 15min to clear, sand/treat with chemicals, and perform the friction test. When they sweep the designated landing RWY, we land tfc on the departure RWY if weather permits, with increased spacing on final to allow for departures in between.
If we use 5nm spacing (not 3 as normal) on the landing RWY (common if B.A is medium or worse) we might land with 10nm spacing on the departure RWY during sweeping. That way you "loose" only 4 landing slots due to the sweeping.
The problems occur when the snow is coming down so heavy that the sweepers can´t get the friction up at all, or if the friction only last for a couple of landings, and they have to start over.
But from what the media show.....not close to that in London
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<<Hey, Director, remember when they removed the Snow Sodiums because 'it'll never snow that much again?' Oh how I larfed......>>
We sure did, M!!! Next thing they'll be taking up the reds and greens 'cos with this much snow you can't see 'em!
We sure did, M!!! Next thing they'll be taking up the reds and greens 'cos with this much snow you can't see 'em!
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I have to say that I think the British inability to cope with snow is all to do with industrial relations, health and safety legislation, local byelaws, perceived environmental factors, and an eye to the litigants. Add to that a large dolop of 'not invented here' and you end up with a pilot's nightmare. Some airports have many different corporate components who seem to be at war with each other instead of working as a team.
The reported braking action is important even if it's unreliable since it allows the commander to make a judgement as to whether he thinks a safe landing/stop can be made. Withholding that information for fear of litigation is simply passing the buck.
I'm sorry, I've had a bellyfull of UK this last week. Conditions which at ZRH or MUC would have caused a 10 minute delay turn into hours in London, sometimes days. My favourite experience of the UK in winter is watching it pass by 39000 feet below.
If it was up to me, I'd call in a team from continental Europe to do the winter ops bit to show how it should be done.
Sorry, I'll be nice to you when it's spring time.
The reported braking action is important even if it's unreliable since it allows the commander to make a judgement as to whether he thinks a safe landing/stop can be made. Withholding that information for fear of litigation is simply passing the buck.
I'm sorry, I've had a bellyfull of UK this last week. Conditions which at ZRH or MUC would have caused a 10 minute delay turn into hours in London, sometimes days. My favourite experience of the UK in winter is watching it pass by 39000 feet below.
If it was up to me, I'd call in a team from continental Europe to do the winter ops bit to show how it should be done.
Sorry, I'll be nice to you when it's spring time.
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wouldn't expect any other reaction from a molly coddled pilot, viewing everything from the warm.
If you think you can do better (You obviously don't know any better) volunteer to help out. You might get a better understanding then. It might save you spouting from your backside so freely..
Everyone else is working together, with none of the problems you spout about ever coming up, to make sure your colleagues can get away as quickly as possible. The last thing anyone needs after 12 hours of de-icing and clearing snow on taxiways and runways is to read that rubbish.
If you think you can do better (You obviously don't know any better) volunteer to help out. You might get a better understanding then.
It might save you spouting from your backside so freely..Everyone else is working together, with none of the problems you spout about ever coming up, to make sure your colleagues can get away as quickly as possible. The last thing anyone needs after 12 hours of de-icing and clearing snow on taxiways and runways is to read that rubbish.
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call100
This topic came up last year and I hinted at the fact that Heathrow in particular should not have the disruption it does in winter as it is a leading international airport (or so called). The excuse of "this does not happen often so why invest" will turn out to be pretty hollow if this happens again next year. It happened last year....and it seems lessons have not been learned from it.
It is interesting to me that whenever an aircraft accident occurs and investigations are launched it often ends up with airline and airport operators having to spend/invest large sums of money in upgrading or adding new equipment/technology for that small chance that it may happen again. However with the weather...which especially given the extremity of it recently in the UK causes the HUGE amounts of disruption that it has done and is safety related....the excuse of "hardly ever happens so why invest" gets trotted out. Surely once should be enough to try and cover all bases the next time that it "won't" happen.
No one is denying the amount of work and effort that goes into trying to keep things moving but what cannot be denied is that other airports do seem to cope better than ones in the UK.
You said yourself that it would be good to experience winter ops in Northern Europe or Canada...surely the top brass in UK airport management will have studied it to try and implement SOME of the techniques in the UK...proper equipment or not.
Maybe as M609 said
I do also think that as SATAN alluded to that deicing on stand can only be a bad thing (no wonder the delays build up). A deicing area on an airfield can't be too much to ask for surely and can be used for other purposes during the non winter months? That is not a question of investment but of space management.
Fingers crossed for next year cos some of my YYZ colleagues are having a good chuckle at the chaos in the UK this week. We haven't even had a big snowfall yet and it was minus 15 today. I think the deicing bay here is one of the largest in the world (correct me if I am wrong anyone).
This topic came up last year and I hinted at the fact that Heathrow in particular should not have the disruption it does in winter as it is a leading international airport (or so called). The excuse of "this does not happen often so why invest" will turn out to be pretty hollow if this happens again next year. It happened last year....and it seems lessons have not been learned from it.
It is interesting to me that whenever an aircraft accident occurs and investigations are launched it often ends up with airline and airport operators having to spend/invest large sums of money in upgrading or adding new equipment/technology for that small chance that it may happen again. However with the weather...which especially given the extremity of it recently in the UK causes the HUGE amounts of disruption that it has done and is safety related....the excuse of "hardly ever happens so why invest" gets trotted out. Surely once should be enough to try and cover all bases the next time that it "won't" happen.
No one is denying the amount of work and effort that goes into trying to keep things moving but what cannot be denied is that other airports do seem to cope better than ones in the UK.
You said yourself that it would be good to experience winter ops in Northern Europe or Canada...surely the top brass in UK airport management will have studied it to try and implement SOME of the techniques in the UK...proper equipment or not.
Maybe as M609 said
Problems during winter condtions is to some extent down to equipment at the airfield, but mostly down to knowledge IMHO.
Fingers crossed for next year cos some of my YYZ colleagues are having a good chuckle at the chaos in the UK this week. We haven't even had a big snowfall yet and it was minus 15 today. I think the deicing bay here is one of the largest in the world (correct me if I am wrong anyone).
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Capt H
The airport authority, not ATC are responsible for snow clearance operations at the big airports, your post may be aimed at the wrong people.
WRT braking action, I fully sympathise with you. I don't understand why the Airport Authority bother with a mu-Meter run if they are going to keep the results to themselves.
I only found this out the other day when a pilot asked me for it and I asked the approach controller. I don't know when the braking action reports stopped - they were passed in my flying days, albeit in the Mil. Maybe the mil still pass them, maybe it is only some airports that don't.
You are probably correct that it is an a**e covering exercise so that if something happens and the braking had been reported as good, there will be no comeback. I know that aircrew can use braking action figures in calculations, so I am at a loss as to why they are not passed.
If I were you, I would ask your Ops people to take it up with the relevant operating authority, as ATC seem to have no influence.
You are a customer to the authority, ATC are 'just' a service provider to them.
The airport authority, not ATC are responsible for snow clearance operations at the big airports, your post may be aimed at the wrong people.
WRT braking action, I fully sympathise with you. I don't understand why the Airport Authority bother with a mu-Meter run if they are going to keep the results to themselves.
I only found this out the other day when a pilot asked me for it and I asked the approach controller. I don't know when the braking action reports stopped - they were passed in my flying days, albeit in the Mil. Maybe the mil still pass them, maybe it is only some airports that don't.
You are probably correct that it is an a**e covering exercise so that if something happens and the braking had been reported as good, there will be no comeback. I know that aircrew can use braking action figures in calculations, so I am at a loss as to why they are not passed.
If I were you, I would ask your Ops people to take it up with the relevant operating authority, as ATC seem to have no influence.
You are a customer to the authority, ATC are 'just' a service provider to them.
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Not passing the figures on has nothing to do with aŁ$e covering......It is contained in Cap683.
Married a Canadian. No one is saying we cope better than those who have months of snow. However, I disagree that
as quite obviously Captain H Peacock was (and he is not alone)....Hence my rant.
Cap 683
Limitations to Operational Use of CFME
4.1 Deployment of CFME on contaminated runways for the purpose of obtaining friction
value readings is not permitted because contaminant drag on the equipment's
measuring wheel, amongst other factors, will cause readings obtained in these
conditions to be unreliable. A runway is termed contaminated when water deeper
than 3 mm, or wet snow or slush is present over 25% or more of the assessed area.
4.2 Contaminated runways should be assessed and the surface conditions reported in
accordance with CAP 168 Chapter 3, Appendix 3D.
4.3 Additionally, it should be borne in mind that, in the time taken to pass assessments
to pilots, conditions may have changed. With the exception of compacted snow and
ice tables, (paragraph 4.4) friction value readings must not be passed to aircrew as
pilots do not have the means to interpret the readings for the purpose of calculating
take-off or landing performance.
4.4 Should the runway surface be affected by an even layer of compacted snow or ice,
as described in CAP 168 Chapter 3, Appendix 3D, then braking action assessment
may be made in accordance with the stated procedure. However, in the UK
conditions conducive to the formation of compacted snow or ice are rare.
Limitations to Operational Use of CFME
4.1 Deployment of CFME on contaminated runways for the purpose of obtaining friction
value readings is not permitted because contaminant drag on the equipment's
measuring wheel, amongst other factors, will cause readings obtained in these
conditions to be unreliable. A runway is termed contaminated when water deeper
than 3 mm, or wet snow or slush is present over 25% or more of the assessed area.
4.2 Contaminated runways should be assessed and the surface conditions reported in
accordance with CAP 168 Chapter 3, Appendix 3D.
4.3 Additionally, it should be borne in mind that, in the time taken to pass assessments
to pilots, conditions may have changed. With the exception of compacted snow and
ice tables, (paragraph 4.4) friction value readings must not be passed to aircrew as
pilots do not have the means to interpret the readings for the purpose of calculating
take-off or landing performance.
4.4 Should the runway surface be affected by an even layer of compacted snow or ice,
as described in CAP 168 Chapter 3, Appendix 3D, then braking action assessment
may be made in accordance with the stated procedure. However, in the UK
conditions conducive to the formation of compacted snow or ice are rare.
'No one is denying the amount of work and effort that goes into trying to keep things moving