LIFFY - Again
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LIFFY - Again
So, the block standing agreement is FL270 at LIFFY.
Why are we being asked occasionally to be FL270 - 10 before LIFFY ?
I don't want to be so low and I am sure the tree huggers would be delighted to hear that it costs us 300kgs per descent to do it .
If, and only if, it mitigates holding at MIRSI, it may, may be worth it - but please Shannon, stick to the BSA, don't make up your own sub rules......... please
Why are we being asked occasionally to be FL270 - 10 before LIFFY ?
I don't want to be so low and I am sure the tree huggers would be delighted to hear that it costs us 300kgs per descent to do it .
If, and only if, it mitigates holding at MIRSI, it may, may be worth it - but please Shannon, stick to the BSA, don't make up your own sub rules......... please
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There could be a million and one reasons why the Shannon Controller amended the normal SA. He wouldn't have been doing it for fun or so that you burn more fuel. He probably did it to ensure separation against other traffic, that may not normally have been there. Who knows, probably only that controller.
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If you get an aircraft turning at BAGSO (EX EGCC or EGGP etc) (West Bound) going to LASNO/CRK/OMOKO/BEDRA etc; getting the East Bounder against him down a little prior to LIFFY is a significant advantage to safety.
Additionally recent experiences have highlighted that giving the exact 'point' often relates in a please explain when the aircraft doesn't make the level by the point.
I tend to use 5 before to avoid the conversations with the boss...
Additionally recent experiences have highlighted that giving the exact 'point' often relates in a please explain when the aircraft doesn't make the level by the point.
I tend to use 5 before to avoid the conversations with the boss...
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I hate to tell you, but tree hugging isn't even on my lists of things to consider, nor does anyones profit enter into my thinking. I do this in certain areas where I think adjacent traffic makes it even safer if I get my traffic down earlier.
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I appreciate the traffic case, it just seems to be a case of certain controllers do, some don't and when I ask not to do it, 90% of the time they say - fine, be level at LIFFY.
Now, when they hand me to MAN - if MAN give me further clearance without condition - the restriction comes out of the box and I may cross at 275 or so.
Howls of protest no doubt but as we sit on both sides of our respective fences - I want to save fuel (no, I don't feel pressured nor fly min fuel) and make the descent more efficient.
Also, why do we never get this approaching GIBSO........... ?
Let the debate continue
Now, when they hand me to MAN - if MAN give me further clearance without condition - the restriction comes out of the box and I may cross at 275 or so.
Howls of protest no doubt but as we sit on both sides of our respective fences - I want to save fuel (no, I don't feel pressured nor fly min fuel) and make the descent more efficient.
Also, why do we never get this approaching GIBSO........... ?
Let the debate continue
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Javelin...
The controllers aren't making up rules just for the sake of it. You're correct, the SA is 270 by LIFFY, but if they want you level 10 before, then there's a reason for it. It is not upto you to question the controllers decision. Standing agreements are for the controllers' use, not the pilots.
There are a million different reasons why he might want you level 10 before; they may be dropping a Midlands inbound to FL280 on top of you. In order to make sure that that a/c makes 280 by LIFFY, its necessary for you to be 270 level 10 before. Or as has previously been mentioned, 270 10 before may be so that they can give a turn off BAGSO for something climbing off manch or liverpool.
Not having a dig at you, but you're not the only aircraft in the sky, and as I've already said, the guy at Shannon isn't making things up for the sake of it. Might I suggest a liason trip to Manch or Shannon so you can see what is going on from our point of view?
The controllers aren't making up rules just for the sake of it. You're correct, the SA is 270 by LIFFY, but if they want you level 10 before, then there's a reason for it. It is not upto you to question the controllers decision. Standing agreements are for the controllers' use, not the pilots.
There are a million different reasons why he might want you level 10 before; they may be dropping a Midlands inbound to FL280 on top of you. In order to make sure that that a/c makes 280 by LIFFY, its necessary for you to be 270 level 10 before. Or as has previously been mentioned, 270 10 before may be so that they can give a turn off BAGSO for something climbing off manch or liverpool.
Not having a dig at you, but you're not the only aircraft in the sky, and as I've already said, the guy at Shannon isn't making things up for the sake of it. Might I suggest a liason trip to Manch or Shannon so you can see what is going on from our point of view?
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Now, when they hand me to MAN - if MAN give me further clearance without condition - the restriction comes out of the box and I may cross at 275 or so.
Effectively to MAN this requirement is transparent, they probably know of it (in the back of their minds somewhere), as it keeps you out of LON SEC 4 and SEC 7, but not necessarily that you are 'doing it now'. Perhaps as a result of a/c busting this restriction without 'being at fault' some controllers have taken a more conservative approach?
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As you approach LIFFY your flight plan data is sent electronically to Manchester ACC if your ADES is EGCC, EGGP, EGNR, EGBB, EGBE, EGNX, EGNH, EGNO, EGNM, and EGCN. This 'ACT' message states that you will be F270 at LIFFY. London ACC sectors 4 and 7 who operate above Manchester ACC above F285 do not receive this ACT message and thus will have no information on your flight at all. Strictly speaking we are not permitted to place an aircraft within 2.5nm of the boundary between two FIRs without prior coordination. Therefore we cannot have an aircraft within 2.5nm of LIFFY above F280. This doesn't really pose a problem if you are approaching LIFFY from the West, however it can get close if you are aproaching from the South. I will routinely give the 'level 5nm before LIFFY' for this reason. It also only takes one aircraft to somehow not make the F270 requirement to ruin your day, so it's also a case of once bitten, twice shy.
Also as Blockla has said we get aircraft crossing BAGSO at F280 making sharp left turns to the South. This is when you will likely get a F270 10nm or more prior to LIFFY if approaching from the West.
Also as Blockla has said we get aircraft crossing BAGSO at F280 making sharp left turns to the South. This is when you will likely get a F270 10nm or more prior to LIFFY if approaching from the West.
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As someone said before, you may also get it when you are not the only a/c on the way to LIFFY.
I have in the past given 260 with 20 to run, 270 with 10 to run and 280 by LIFFY, with 3 all there at the same time.
Basically we do it for controller amusement, nothing more
I have in the past given 260 with 20 to run, 270 with 10 to run and 280 by LIFFY, with 3 all there at the same time.
Basically we do it for controller amusement, nothing more
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a bit of blunt honesty
Javelin
As a controller myself, not in this area of the world admittedly, but the London TMA, I need to be a little honest with you. We dont hand out level restrictions for the sake of it, we hand them out because they are necessary. And the great thing about a Radar Control Service is that we are in control. If Shannon want you to be level 10 before Liffy, they want it for a reason, so do it. Fuel is important, but first priority is safety. WE are taught at ATC college three priorities, safelyorderly and efficiently. Safe is first! If you want to see why they restrict you, then visit the centre, otherwise just do it! standing agreements are not there for the benefit of pilots or descent planning, they are there to simplify the control system. If i want to amend a SA, I will. Because I am in control. They are amended every day in the London TMA, to move traffic. WE try and help inbounds and outbounds, slowing them back to holding speed etc as soon as we can, because we know the economic situation at the moment, but sometimes we just dont care that its gonna use x kgs of fuel more, all we care about is that you will hit the company traffic coming the opposite direction.
You are a pilot, we are atc. we dont tell you how to fly your plane do we?
As a controller myself, not in this area of the world admittedly, but the London TMA, I need to be a little honest with you. We dont hand out level restrictions for the sake of it, we hand them out because they are necessary. And the great thing about a Radar Control Service is that we are in control. If Shannon want you to be level 10 before Liffy, they want it for a reason, so do it. Fuel is important, but first priority is safety. WE are taught at ATC college three priorities, safelyorderly and efficiently. Safe is first! If you want to see why they restrict you, then visit the centre, otherwise just do it! standing agreements are not there for the benefit of pilots or descent planning, they are there to simplify the control system. If i want to amend a SA, I will. Because I am in control. They are amended every day in the London TMA, to move traffic. WE try and help inbounds and outbounds, slowing them back to holding speed etc as soon as we can, because we know the economic situation at the moment, but sometimes we just dont care that its gonna use x kgs of fuel more, all we care about is that you will hit the company traffic coming the opposite direction.
You are a pilot, we are atc. we dont tell you how to fly your plane do we?
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Normally traffic is to be transferred to the receiving centre in level flight. This normally takes place up to 3 mins from the boundary. And so the traffic should ideally be in level flight at the level in the ACT. Generally people do their best and use the cross LIFFY instruction but unforunately there has been quite a few occasions were the instruction to cross LIFFY hasn't really been followed and aircraft can go sailing through Sector 7 causing some late coordination with London.
The cross 5 or 10 before at the level builds in a bit of protection.
The cross 5 or 10 before at the level builds in a bit of protection.
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I see this is 'up' again
. I very much see the ATC point (I'll even forgive Medway), and I think it essential to get level us 'before', so now that all our OPS depts have built in the 270 LIFFY into the fuel plan (they have, haven't they....
) it's up to us to add 'the extra'. I cannot see 300kg, J - that is between 9 and 12000kg per hour DIFFERENCE at 270 as opposed to cruise. What on earth are you flying? More like 20kg?
. I very much see the ATC point (I'll even forgive Medway), and I think it essential to get level us 'before', so now that all our OPS depts have built in the 270 LIFFY into the fuel plan (they have, haven't they....) it's up to us to add 'the extra'. I cannot see 300kg, J - that is between 9 and 12000kg per hour DIFFERENCE at 270 as opposed to cruise. What on earth are you flying? More like 20kg?
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Javelin....
It doesn't happen often enough in the ATC Forum that Pilots ask questions. I'm not going to add to the answers to your question but I do want to say something of your tone: don't take it the wrong way, but it struck me as a little "snotty"!!!
Controllers generally don't make up their own rules. We tend to more or less stick to the "book". There are times that we need to bend the rules. Pilots never have the full traffic picture. If you would like to quiery an instruction, by all means ask. Most of us will explain if we have the time.
I'm sure FL270 10nm before LIFFY doesn't always happen. But when it does, be rest assured that someone is lookin out to protect your ass from the unspeakable. The skies are getting busier and unfortunately, sometimes economy goes down the pan.
So next time you want to ask question, or in your case pass a remark, do so politely. Remember who's watchin your ass!!!!
By the way, I have worked in Ireland and I'm familiar with the airspace. The controllers there are top notch and I understand why they need to give such an instruction regularly.
Now I'm off back to the beach.....
It doesn't happen often enough in the ATC Forum that Pilots ask questions. I'm not going to add to the answers to your question but I do want to say something of your tone: don't take it the wrong way, but it struck me as a little "snotty"!!!
Controllers generally don't make up their own rules. We tend to more or less stick to the "book". There are times that we need to bend the rules. Pilots never have the full traffic picture. If you would like to quiery an instruction, by all means ask. Most of us will explain if we have the time.
I'm sure FL270 10nm before LIFFY doesn't always happen. But when it does, be rest assured that someone is lookin out to protect your ass from the unspeakable. The skies are getting busier and unfortunately, sometimes economy goes down the pan.
So next time you want to ask question, or in your case pass a remark, do so politely. Remember who's watchin your ass!!!!
By the way, I have worked in Ireland and I'm familiar with the airspace. The controllers there are top notch and I understand why they need to give such an instruction regularly.
Now I'm off back to the beach.....
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Ooooo, Fab,
Now
Taking it from the bottom, so to speak.
Jolly Roger - no, I am not being snotty, just wanting to know the answers....
I always ask politely - you guys in SNN will recognise me because I always sign off with 'good luck'.
BOAC - the 300kgs is the difference between an unrestricted descent and 270 LIFFY.
Need to know - our aeroplane will arrive at a constraint at the level, at the mile (A330). If we programme the BSA, it will do it - what irritates is when we plan what our flight plan says and then get something different a minute before TOD. You plan, we plan.........
Medway - CRM
Fun Lever - probably the best reply yet - I can understand your thinking, however the front end and the controlling end need to talk and fly together a bit more often to enable a better understanding of what is going on.
In the 'good old days' I used to fly lots of MAN and LBA controllers on fam flights. Sadly with restrictions and union agreements they are not happening any more - shame really because we then see and talk about each others 'bees' and hopefully sort out these problems.
Gents (ladies) I post to elicit reaction and debate - I am one of the good guys - honest - and do work with ATC, however there are certain things that irritate because they appear to be dictated by agreements established by committee.
Feel free to PM and have a chat - heaven forbid - organise a fam flight - we don't bite
Now
Taking it from the bottom, so to speak.
Jolly Roger - no, I am not being snotty, just wanting to know the answers....
I always ask politely - you guys in SNN will recognise me because I always sign off with 'good luck'.
BOAC - the 300kgs is the difference between an unrestricted descent and 270 LIFFY.
Need to know - our aeroplane will arrive at a constraint at the level, at the mile (A330). If we programme the BSA, it will do it - what irritates is when we plan what our flight plan says and then get something different a minute before TOD. You plan, we plan.........
Medway - CRM
Fun Lever - probably the best reply yet - I can understand your thinking, however the front end and the controlling end need to talk and fly together a bit more often to enable a better understanding of what is going on.
In the 'good old days' I used to fly lots of MAN and LBA controllers on fam flights. Sadly with restrictions and union agreements they are not happening any more - shame really because we then see and talk about each others 'bees' and hopefully sort out these problems.
Gents (ladies) I post to elicit reaction and debate - I am one of the good guys - honest - and do work with ATC, however there are certain things that irritate because they appear to be dictated by agreements established by committee.
Feel free to PM and have a chat - heaven forbid - organise a fam flight - we don't bite
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BOAC - the 300kgs is the difference between an unrestricted descent and 270 LIFFY.
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Javelin - no, you certainly not say that before (#1)! Regarding the SA's, we thrashed this out ages ago. We have it, we live with it, I presume you have obtained a copy of these SAs and told your Flt Planning bods? I did, (thanks to a PPruning controller). IF they have adjusted your PLOG fuel, end of story? If not, you know about it, so you do it, and I recommend you annotate your PLOG with the 'extra' to drum it home and cover your arse.