Last usage of runway 23 at LHR
I don't know about LL, but I heard one land at KK back in the early 80's. A US Navy A-3 Skywarrior, converted to be a VIP transport, on a flight from somewhere in southern Europe.
I heard it get clearance to land from the Tower. The next comms from the aircraft was a question as to whether he could drop his braking-chute on the runway, or should he turn-off first!
But, back to LL ....
I remember reading an article in the 90s which was all about SAS and their DC-9 operations arouns Scandinavia. It explained that some of their fleet were equipped with braking-chutes for use in the winter months on frozen runways in the far north.
I suppose, in theory, some of those a/c could have operated into LL, but I can't imagine that they'd ever need to use them.
I heard it get clearance to land from the Tower. The next comms from the aircraft was a question as to whether he could drop his braking-chute on the runway, or should he turn-off first!
But, back to LL ....
I remember reading an article in the 90s which was all about SAS and their DC-9 operations arouns Scandinavia. It explained that some of their fleet were equipped with braking-chutes for use in the winter months on frozen runways in the far north.
I suppose, in theory, some of those a/c could have operated into LL, but I can't imagine that they'd ever need to use them.
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TU-104s and the odd Caravelle used them at Heathrow, but Heaven knows why. Maybe they had no brakes! A Tower request to a TU-104 not to drop the chute until off the runway usually resulted in a billowing great shroud falling on to the runway for Checker to retrieve, resulting in a go-around for the next arrival...
Thanks GoN & HD
I know an Air France Caravelle used one in early 1979 on rwy 23. I was onboard the Trident that landed just ahead of it & I heard the AFR burst a tyre on landing & caused a lot of delays !
I know an Air France Caravelle used one in early 1979 on rwy 23. I was onboard the Trident that landed just ahead of it & I heard the AFR burst a tyre on landing & caused a lot of delays !
Furthering the thread drift but what about the last time 05 was used. I flew into LHR many many times but never on 23 though on return from our honeymoon we did use 05 to arive back in a freezing UK after a week in sunny Faro.
Great view from right overhead Heathrow as we approached -presumeably something like over head the Airport and then a long downwind southwest to comeback in across the Thames upstream from Staines. Was 05 a 'talkdown' appraoach ?
Also saw a Swissair Caravelle pop the chure in the 60s quite a sight when not expecting it.
Also amusing to see the FO climb out of the flightdeck window and shimmy down a rope to check on something after it stopped
PB
Great view from right overhead Heathrow as we approached -presumeably something like over head the Airport and then a long downwind southwest to comeback in across the Thames upstream from Staines. Was 05 a 'talkdown' appraoach ?
Also saw a Swissair Caravelle pop the chure in the 60s quite a sight when not expecting it.
Also amusing to see the FO climb out of the flightdeck window and shimmy down a rope to check on something after it stopped
PB
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Apart from the westbounds that HD mentioned, the big problem with 05 was track distance from BIG/OCK. Most crews thought it would be straight onto base leg and down but the outbounds got in the way and you had to take them over final and then downwind left before turning back. There were nearly some red faces when they realised that "we've just enough fuel if we leave the hold now" didn't account for this.
Other joys of 05 SRA's was when IBE broke cloud and all he could see was water, as he was over one of the Reservoirs (can't remember the names now) and knew LL was inland so called "over the sea going round"! Took some convincing second time round. Also TWA (ah those were the days) saying "we'd like to go visual now" at 6nm when no-one else saw the Runway until 2 nm. "Confirm visual?" to which he replied "Hell no, but we'd sure like to be visual now". Not sure if it was a comment on my SRA.
Other joys of 05 SRA's was when IBE broke cloud and all he could see was water, as he was over one of the Reservoirs (can't remember the names now) and knew LL was inland so called "over the sea going round"! Took some convincing second time round. Also TWA (ah those were the days) saying "we'd like to go visual now" at 6nm when no-one else saw the Runway until 2 nm. "Confirm visual?" to which he replied "Hell no, but we'd sure like to be visual now". Not sure if it was a comment on my SRA.
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<<Was 05 a 'talkdown' appraoach ?>>
Being very young (!), I don't know if PAR was ever used on the subsidiary runways but certainly SRAs were employed, as windowjob mentioned. There was never ILS on that runway.
***I've found one piece of info: Runway 23 was permanently withdrawn from use on 27 October 2002. The last movement was SAA Boeing 747 ZS-SAU, which landed at 0746.
Being very young (!), I don't know if PAR was ever used on the subsidiary runways but certainly SRAs were employed, as windowjob mentioned. There was never ILS on that runway.
***I've found one piece of info: Runway 23 was permanently withdrawn from use on 27 October 2002. The last movement was SAA Boeing 747 ZS-SAU, which landed at 0746.
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Dunno 'bout you HD but as an 05 Number 2 Director I've done alternate SRAs to 05 with a second, and adjacent, Number 2. Tremendous fun, especially if you got a 'good' guy who just got on with it and you trusted each other. It was best to try and put them to tower in the correct order though otherwise it would confuse the hell out of the 10R/05 man shooting ("Roll NOW!") the gaps!!
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Well . . . got to say . . . as if it were yesterday but regrettably it is not.
My LL Twr Validation was on 05! . . yep not seen it before and SRG did offer another appointment if I wished? . . . No ta, been up most of the night looking forward to the day.
As you may recall '' Air '' was combined for 05 Ops, ie Just the one air controller/frequency as all three runways were yours (05, 10L, 10R).
It worked a dream with the other Air person doing an invaluable job (planner/slot negotiator/phones/holding point sequencing etc) just left you with the sometimes heart rendering decisions and yes clearing traffic 4 take off on 10R with traffic on short(ish) final for 05 . . it had to be judged shall we say. (on the brakes > power up > go now meant . . go NOW honest, it's a long way to block 85).
I believe the afternoon watch ended up with a few rejected take offs and the usual excitement when it did not quite work out . . . just stop before block 85!!
Anyways a big thank you to CM my Air2 man who always managed to sort the Dep order and renegotiate the slots or otherwise make sure that I got away with it. I cannot remember who was on GMC but they too had little experience of 05 Ops. And thanks to SRG who let me loose to spend many an enjoyable shift at probably the best posting . . in those days at least.
Oh and yes those track miles . . leave BIG 320 then left 280 towards Amersham'ish then the long downwind left for SRA to 05 having sequenced with the LAM and BNN traffic.
Happy days . . . Really
My LL Twr Validation was on 05! . . yep not seen it before and SRG did offer another appointment if I wished? . . . No ta, been up most of the night looking forward to the day.
As you may recall '' Air '' was combined for 05 Ops, ie Just the one air controller/frequency as all three runways were yours (05, 10L, 10R).
It worked a dream with the other Air person doing an invaluable job (planner/slot negotiator/phones/holding point sequencing etc) just left you with the sometimes heart rendering decisions and yes clearing traffic 4 take off on 10R with traffic on short(ish) final for 05 . . it had to be judged shall we say. (on the brakes > power up > go now meant . . go NOW honest, it's a long way to block 85).
I believe the afternoon watch ended up with a few rejected take offs and the usual excitement when it did not quite work out . . . just stop before block 85!!
Anyways a big thank you to CM my Air2 man who always managed to sort the Dep order and renegotiate the slots or otherwise make sure that I got away with it. I cannot remember who was on GMC but they too had little experience of 05 Ops. And thanks to SRG who let me loose to spend many an enjoyable shift at probably the best posting . . in those days at least.
Oh and yes those track miles . . leave BIG 320 then left 280 towards Amersham'ish then the long downwind left for SRA to 05 having sequenced with the LAM and BNN traffic.
Happy days . . . Really
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<<My LL Twr Validation was on 05! . . yep not seen it before and SRG did offer another appointment if I wished? >>
Wasn't with Harry "The Colonel" was it? If so he was probably as terrified as you!
Guess we must have worked together...
Take care Bren McC
Wasn't with Harry "The Colonel" was it? If so he was probably as terrified as you!
Guess we must have worked together...
Take care Bren McC
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<< Wasn't with Harry "The Colonel" was it? If so he was probably as terrified as you!>> Wish I could remember that far back . . it may very well have been!
Guess we must have worked together ... we certainly have Old Bean . . hope you are keeping well.
Guess we must have worked together ... we certainly have Old Bean . . hope you are keeping well.
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There were 2 schools of thought on doing SRA's to 05. Some Watches had 2 Directors with each doing alternate one's as Talkdownman says and some had the first Dir sequencing to final and then at 6nm hand over to the 2nd for the full SRA as he would just have transferred the first to Twr at 2nm or more. This meant that each Dir only did 1 job i.e sequencing or SRA'ing rather than doing both at the same time, plus the Twr always knew who to ring if there was a problem or to give a landing clearance.
How could you ever explain to SRG nowadays "shooting the gap" with a departure from 10R cleared for take off (or at least told "Roll Now Take off clearance to follow") against tfc that still hadn't landed on 05!
How could you ever explain to SRG nowadays "shooting the gap" with a departure from 10R cleared for take off (or at least told "Roll Now Take off clearance to follow") against tfc that still hadn't landed on 05!
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Very interesting thread. Anyone comment, ballpark figure, how often traffic uses 09L for departure for whatever reason. I know the Cranfield Agreement prohibits this as a norm but the up to date SIDS suggest it's an option?
And with Hoon revoking the above agreement, about to become commonplace again?
And with Hoon revoking the above agreement, about to become commonplace again?
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S1E,
It's always an option...when 27L/09R was being resurfaced a few years ago, it would be closed every night at 2230. If we were on easterlies, that would mean quite a few 09L departures.
Not sure of a ballpark figure to be honest. I think there were a few 09L departures a few weeks ago one night....Maybe wrong on that one though.
It's always an option...when 27L/09R was being resurfaced a few years ago, it would be closed every night at 2230. If we were on easterlies, that would mean quite a few 09L departures.
Not sure of a ballpark figure to be honest. I think there were a few 09L departures a few weeks ago one night....Maybe wrong on that one though.
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Wow this is bringing back some memories for me, i used to live in Staines, and remember well the times 05R was in use, does anyone remember the time that it was used for 2/3 days solid in the 70's and in the summer! Tunis 727's swissair cv990's TWA 747's . I presume there was work being carried out on the main 2 runways.
I saw RWE going in whilst messing around near the house, something i will never forget, some very loud explosions!
Used to listen in to atc and remember the SRA approaches, actually taped a few times, but sadly wrote over them, would have made good nostalgia.
Saw the rocket land on it once while at the threshold, that was scary.
The only other times when using 05R was extremly cold ne wind, the 707's passed over us at 700' the smell of the kerosene and the screaming JT3's.
I have been at EGLL for 25 years now and only seen o5 used once, and that would have been between 91 and 94, i believe this was the last time, must have just been before the whisky stands were built.
I have towed ac to base when 23 was in use and remember holding for an inbound A320 when said a/c went around, turned out another tow,er was towing from T4 straight across the 05 threhold! Thats when i realised how dangerous using this runway was.
Also the near miss with a 747 and a F28, one was landing the other departing both from 23.
I saw RWE going in whilst messing around near the house, something i will never forget, some very loud explosions!
Used to listen in to atc and remember the SRA approaches, actually taped a few times, but sadly wrote over them, would have made good nostalgia.
Saw the rocket land on it once while at the threshold, that was scary.
The only other times when using 05R was extremly cold ne wind, the 707's passed over us at 700' the smell of the kerosene and the screaming JT3's.
I have been at EGLL for 25 years now and only seen o5 used once, and that would have been between 91 and 94, i believe this was the last time, must have just been before the whisky stands were built.
I have towed ac to base when 23 was in use and remember holding for an inbound A320 when said a/c went around, turned out another tow,er was towing from T4 straight across the 05 threhold! Thats when i realised how dangerous using this runway was.
Also the near miss with a 747 and a F28, one was landing the other departing both from 23.
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05 SRO one Christmas in the mid 80s, now that was a very interesting day.
E Watch on duty, well a few of them anyway.
Ba111 left Heathrow 05 for JJ, tailwind all the way, for some reason could not land at JJ, decided to return to LL, now a screaming headwind, enters OCK stack , must leave stack now or will have to divert, vectored as mentioned with about 70 miles from touch down, declares Mayday at 5 miles,
E Watch on duty, well a few of them anyway.
Ba111 left Heathrow 05 for JJ, tailwind all the way, for some reason could not land at JJ, decided to return to LL, now a screaming headwind, enters OCK stack , must leave stack now or will have to divert, vectored as mentioned with about 70 miles from touch down, declares Mayday at 5 miles,
Thread Starter
Great thread and a lot of fun to pull some of the greybeards in to fill us in about how LHR was before the boring 2 parallel arrangement.
My airline only mentions in the 10-7 pages that 9L is normally not used and does not publish anything for a 9L departure. Yet the above post says that they have done it quite a few times the past years. What circumstances metit this? Is there obstacle data available? I will try to pull it out of our ACARS tomorrow and see what we have from that end. What kind of clearance does one receive from clearance delivery? Radar vectors with an "expect?"
Also, what is a good link on a discussion on a 3rd runway there? I know this is a political hot potato, but if I were King for a day I would be pouring concrete tomorrow morning... Save more fuel and carbon footprint by just landing than we would holding
My airline only mentions in the 10-7 pages that 9L is normally not used and does not publish anything for a 9L departure. Yet the above post says that they have done it quite a few times the past years. What circumstances metit this? Is there obstacle data available? I will try to pull it out of our ACARS tomorrow and see what we have from that end. What kind of clearance does one receive from clearance delivery? Radar vectors with an "expect?"
Also, what is a good link on a discussion on a 3rd runway there? I know this is a political hot potato, but if I were King for a day I would be pouring concrete tomorrow morning... Save more fuel and carbon footprint by just landing than we would holding
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There is a full range of 09L SIDs in the AIP, quite surprised that you have no details of them.
The vast majority of 09L departures will have been when the southerly runway was closed (from 2230 when it was being resurfaced, or when being de-iced etc). Other times we may use it might be when it has a significantly better RVR or when the 09L ILS is u/s and the weather precludes visuals/SRAs.
The vast majority of 09L departures will have been when the southerly runway was closed (from 2230 when it was being resurfaced, or when being de-iced etc). Other times we may use it might be when it has a significantly better RVR or when the 09L ILS is u/s and the weather precludes visuals/SRAs.