Controllers aeronautical knowledge.
A more important problem is the decline in interest in science and the lowering of standards in GCSE Physics. Have a laugh at this
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp...W-QP-MAR08.PDF
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp...W-QP-MAR08.PDF
That's unbelievable - a complete joke! I dropped O-Level Physics because I was Arts-orientated 40-odd years ago and found it a little difficult. My suspicions about current exam standards are confirmed ...
I wanna tell you a story.
Way back when I first started on real radar, Honey Monster was talking to a Cessna 150 student solo one day; student called and said he had a rough running engine and was unable to maintain height, so he would have to land in a field. Honey Monster asked him if he'd tried carb heat - he hadn't so he tried it and surprise surprise, then engine started to regain power!
Now Honey M like me and many others had a PPL thus he knew all about carb heat; how many controllers have come throught the system now who don't know what it does; it certainly made a difference between a possibly bent C!50 and the aircraft landing safely.
Way back when I first started on real radar, Honey Monster was talking to a Cessna 150 student solo one day; student called and said he had a rough running engine and was unable to maintain height, so he would have to land in a field. Honey Monster asked him if he'd tried carb heat - he hadn't so he tried it and surprise surprise, then engine started to regain power!
Now Honey M like me and many others had a PPL thus he knew all about carb heat; how many controllers have come throught the system now who don't know what it does; it certainly made a difference between a possibly bent C!50 and the aircraft landing safely.
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Am I right in thinking there used to be some flight time in the ATCO training??
I am starting soon and believe me I would LOVE to have a PPL, I do think some flight time to understand "the other side" of the radio is important.
I am starting soon and believe me I would LOVE to have a PPL, I do think some flight time to understand "the other side" of the radio is important.
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Going back to GCSE Physics, Question 7A.
How much energy is usefully transferred by the television if it is broadcasting such gems as 'Eastenders', 'Bargain Hunt', or 'Car Booty'?
How much energy is usefully transferred by the television if it is broadcasting such gems as 'Eastenders', 'Bargain Hunt', or 'Car Booty'?
Even some teachers are concerned about the demise of science.
Wellington Grey -- Articles -- A physics teacher begs for his subject back: An open letter to the AQA board and the UK Department for Education
Wellington Grey -- Articles -- A physics teacher begs for his subject back: An open letter to the AQA board and the UK Department for Education
Luvverley!
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Am I right in thinking there used to be some flight time in the ATCO training??
I trained at a "private" college (now defunct), but I made it a point for me to talk to pilots of all sorts of ilk about their opinions and their experiences. But then again, I chose this job because I like aircraft but don't really want to fly them.
Much has changed in the 8 years since I got my own Yellow Peril in my stickies, but what is so important is to never stop learning. It's one of the most dynamic occupations out there, and for me, the most exciting and challenging one possible.
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Keep ahead of the ACFT
Thanks to all for the interest and excellent replies.
Having read your opinions I am convinced that for the sake of flight safety it would usefull for controllers AND EMERGENCY SERVICES to have some basic aeronautical knowledge.
This would be mainly for emergency situations and would enable all concerned on the ground to keep ahead of the aircraft.
Pilots have a saying, don't fly where your brain is already at.
An example of where I'm coming from was an incident at Manchester where a Thomson aircraft had a bird strike on take off and lost an engine.
During this incident the controller and emergency services where ahead of the aircraft and knew what to expect. Therefore the pilots did not need to explain that they could not use reverse thrust and with a heavy landind could have very hot brakes and possible gear fire.
The controller and emergency services were aware of this and were ready to inspect the main gear as soon as the aircraft stopped.
Further, the controller knew the crew would have difficulty taxying on one engine and provided a non stop taxi clearence including crossing an active back to the gate.
The controller in this situation did an excellent job and was thinking ahead of the situation.
I think the CRM loop should include pilots and controllers.
By the way, the trainees I mentioned at the start were all active and experienced. Some with over ten years.
Also was surprised that here controllers are posted in one job and there they stay. I would have thought they would work their way up starting at tower then approach then area, but no, where they start is where they stay.
Cheers and thanks.
Having read your opinions I am convinced that for the sake of flight safety it would usefull for controllers AND EMERGENCY SERVICES to have some basic aeronautical knowledge.
This would be mainly for emergency situations and would enable all concerned on the ground to keep ahead of the aircraft.
Pilots have a saying, don't fly where your brain is already at.
An example of where I'm coming from was an incident at Manchester where a Thomson aircraft had a bird strike on take off and lost an engine.
During this incident the controller and emergency services where ahead of the aircraft and knew what to expect. Therefore the pilots did not need to explain that they could not use reverse thrust and with a heavy landind could have very hot brakes and possible gear fire.
The controller and emergency services were aware of this and were ready to inspect the main gear as soon as the aircraft stopped.
Further, the controller knew the crew would have difficulty taxying on one engine and provided a non stop taxi clearence including crossing an active back to the gate.
The controller in this situation did an excellent job and was thinking ahead of the situation.
I think the CRM loop should include pilots and controllers.
By the way, the trainees I mentioned at the start were all active and experienced. Some with over ten years.
Also was surprised that here controllers are posted in one job and there they stay. I would have thought they would work their way up starting at tower then approach then area, but no, where they start is where they stay.
Cheers and thanks.
Luvverley!
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Also was surprised that here controllers are posted in one job and there they stay. I would have thought they would work their way up starting at tower then approach then area, but no, where they start is where they stay.
I've worked at procedural approach towers (app/aerodrome), international aerodrome control towers, area procedural and radar. Currently at a somewhat busy-ish international tower. I'm maybe a little over halfway through my career. (Depends on continuing to pass the medical.)
When I trained, the course was three years. A lot of "knowledge" was assimilated over that time, rather than the pressure cooker technique applied today. Part of the training was 60hrs flight training, with the PPL issue a requirement. I did another 500~ hours since then, for fun, on various (light) types, and learned a lot; had a lot of fun, and a few frights.
The lack of aviation training in ATC today is lamentable. I think it makes for a controller who is more likely to be confident in a wider range of situations.
I have no issue with todays trainees. Most of them are a hell of a lot sharper and smarter than I was (and am) and if I was ~20 again and applying, I doubt I'd get much past the second hurdle or thereabouts. They also have to work a lot harder to try and learn stuff in 6 months instead of three years, and that as much seems to stick as it does (in most cases) is, I feel, more a credit to the trainee than to the system that is producing them. I think that system owes them a much better quality of training than is often provided, from the selection process right on through, and including at least some flying training.
When I trained, the course was three years. A lot of "knowledge" was assimilated over that time, rather than the pressure cooker technique applied today. Part of the training was 60hrs flight training, with the PPL issue a requirement. I did another 500~ hours since then, for fun, on various (light) types, and learned a lot; had a lot of fun, and a few frights.
The lack of aviation training in ATC today is lamentable. I think it makes for a controller who is more likely to be confident in a wider range of situations.
I have no issue with todays trainees. Most of them are a hell of a lot sharper and smarter than I was (and am) and if I was ~20 again and applying, I doubt I'd get much past the second hurdle or thereabouts. They also have to work a lot harder to try and learn stuff in 6 months instead of three years, and that as much seems to stick as it does (in most cases) is, I feel, more a credit to the trainee than to the system that is producing them. I think that system owes them a much better quality of training than is often provided, from the selection process right on through, and including at least some flying training.
In addition to what HD said in post 27:
At the beginning of the NATS ATCO Cadet course you got a full PPL course. After this annually for 3 years you got 5 hours refresher flying at an allocated flying school. At the end of the cadet course ie after the third year, we got route flying in a twin of some sort (usually Apache/Aztec/ Seneca) where we just did radio navigation and RTF calls, the instructor doing the flying under our 'guidance'. This was followed by the 2 week course at BA where we flew basic sims (system trainers?) and learnt how the autopilot systems operated (pre FMS). My course was on the BEA Trident sims at Viking House, Southall.
At the beginning of the NATS ATCO Cadet course you got a full PPL course. After this annually for 3 years you got 5 hours refresher flying at an allocated flying school. At the end of the cadet course ie after the third year, we got route flying in a twin of some sort (usually Apache/Aztec/ Seneca) where we just did radio navigation and RTF calls, the instructor doing the flying under our 'guidance'. This was followed by the 2 week course at BA where we flew basic sims (system trainers?) and learnt how the autopilot systems operated (pre FMS). My course was on the BEA Trident sims at Viking House, Southall.
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general aviation knowlegde
Gentlemen,ladies....
I didn't fully scan all the previous comments on this subject, but it struck me that a kind of "spook" is going thru ATC training, in that a general knowledge of aviation and/or aviation oriented subjects is being hollowed out thoughout training.
Mostly it has its origin in finance.......there is not enough time (=money) in educating trainees, and on top of that i think in general young people are being introduced into "the real" world by using modular, strictly bordered pieces of training, to be able to know quickly and "efficiently" how to deal with a certain problem and/or situation, but the whole perspective is somewhere lost in a void......
The same applies for atc training as far as i am concerned, at least this feeling is getting stronger and stronger with myself.
Ofcourse you may conclude that i myself am indeed one of the `old farts` and indeed each generation has its merits or so, but a noticeable difference has already been created.Same goes for the LPE issue, and not only for `non western` originating candidates.
It is sometimes staggering to learn that a lot of young trainees are hardly able to express themselves in plain english, though they had `sufficient´ training at high school level.....but ofcourse that is not the issue, the issue at hand is a very, very basic aviation knowledge applied to ATC training by some providers ( i won´t mention which, or which country.....) and this will eventually have its backfiring effect.....
Just my two ATC~pennies....
I didn't fully scan all the previous comments on this subject, but it struck me that a kind of "spook" is going thru ATC training, in that a general knowledge of aviation and/or aviation oriented subjects is being hollowed out thoughout training.
Mostly it has its origin in finance.......there is not enough time (=money) in educating trainees, and on top of that i think in general young people are being introduced into "the real" world by using modular, strictly bordered pieces of training, to be able to know quickly and "efficiently" how to deal with a certain problem and/or situation, but the whole perspective is somewhere lost in a void......
The same applies for atc training as far as i am concerned, at least this feeling is getting stronger and stronger with myself.
Ofcourse you may conclude that i myself am indeed one of the `old farts` and indeed each generation has its merits or so, but a noticeable difference has already been created.Same goes for the LPE issue, and not only for `non western` originating candidates.
It is sometimes staggering to learn that a lot of young trainees are hardly able to express themselves in plain english, though they had `sufficient´ training at high school level.....but ofcourse that is not the issue, the issue at hand is a very, very basic aviation knowledge applied to ATC training by some providers ( i won´t mention which, or which country.....) and this will eventually have its backfiring effect.....
Just my two ATC~pennies....
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Hi everybobdy!
I just want to share my experience of french ATC training. I think that our training is very complete concerning aviation knowledge. I had to attend different lessons: english, aerodynamics, avionics, meteorology, regulation (for ATC and the bases for public transport), telecommunication (applied to ATC), Aeronautical Information Service, airport and environment, engines, aircraft recognition, navigation, radar, safety, and so on... I am sure I forget other lessons I don't remember or I don't know how to translate.
I could also have got my PPL (it's included in our training so that we know how it is on the other side) if only I wouldn't have been sick in a small plane.
During the english classes, I studied general english as well as aeronautical english( including emergency and unusual situations, live traffic from different english speaking countries or not).
Now that I am working in an airport I still have english lessons because I have to maintain my english level.
I think our training isn't so bad because when we finally work on an airfield or in an ACC we aren't just stupid ATCs who do their jobs whithout knowing anything else which is linked to it (even if sometimes pilots think we are stupid...).
I just want to share my experience of french ATC training. I think that our training is very complete concerning aviation knowledge. I had to attend different lessons: english, aerodynamics, avionics, meteorology, regulation (for ATC and the bases for public transport), telecommunication (applied to ATC), Aeronautical Information Service, airport and environment, engines, aircraft recognition, navigation, radar, safety, and so on... I am sure I forget other lessons I don't remember or I don't know how to translate.
I could also have got my PPL (it's included in our training so that we know how it is on the other side) if only I wouldn't have been sick in a small plane.
During the english classes, I studied general english as well as aeronautical english( including emergency and unusual situations, live traffic from different english speaking countries or not).
Now that I am working in an airport I still have english lessons because I have to maintain my english level.
I think our training isn't so bad because when we finally work on an airfield or in an ACC we aren't just stupid ATCs who do their jobs whithout knowing anything else which is linked to it (even if sometimes pilots think we are stupid...).