ATC History
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London UK
Age: 74
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even more ATC history please
Hi Guys.
I am interested that the subject of the birth of our ATC system has arisen again.
My book, yes my book is finished up to the year 1939 and stands at about 50,000 words, the war years are running out to be about the same size and boy was there ever a cover-up there.
You may remember parts of it published in the CAA "in house" magazine (Whatever that was called) under the title "Heavy Weather".
Did any of you ever work in the "Listed Building"? It was the first home of LATCC and was called that, not because it was of any a historical importance but because it tilted and they put railway sleepers under it to raise one side.
The story behind the colours used to identify airways is facinating but even more incredible is how we got to use even thousands of feet for westbounds.
The post war section is going very well but I need anecdotes. The Harefield/Northolt mid-air and the EGLL Vulcan crash are two items that they wish were buried but I have the goods.
For instance, at the enquiry into the crash between the SAS DC-6? and the Avro York, the Air Ministry were asked had they received any communications from any airline regarding the need to increase seperation from 500 to 1000 feet due to the inaccurate altimeters, they answered no.
They must have forgotten the seven copies of letters from the airlines I have complaining about the lack of seperation caused by inaccurate altimeters.
I am afraid the book is no romance, it just tells the truth and I have the facts to back me.
Cheers
xpz67 (ex LATCC, EGDM, EGFF to name but a few)
I am interested that the subject of the birth of our ATC system has arisen again.
My book, yes my book is finished up to the year 1939 and stands at about 50,000 words, the war years are running out to be about the same size and boy was there ever a cover-up there.
You may remember parts of it published in the CAA "in house" magazine (Whatever that was called) under the title "Heavy Weather".
Did any of you ever work in the "Listed Building"? It was the first home of LATCC and was called that, not because it was of any a historical importance but because it tilted and they put railway sleepers under it to raise one side.
The story behind the colours used to identify airways is facinating but even more incredible is how we got to use even thousands of feet for westbounds.
The post war section is going very well but I need anecdotes. The Harefield/Northolt mid-air and the EGLL Vulcan crash are two items that they wish were buried but I have the goods.
For instance, at the enquiry into the crash between the SAS DC-6? and the Avro York, the Air Ministry were asked had they received any communications from any airline regarding the need to increase seperation from 500 to 1000 feet due to the inaccurate altimeters, they answered no.
They must have forgotten the seven copies of letters from the airlines I have complaining about the lack of seperation caused by inaccurate altimeters.
I am afraid the book is no romance, it just tells the truth and I have the facts to back me.
Cheers
xpz67 (ex LATCC, EGDM, EGFF to name but a few)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Did any of you ever work in the "Listed Building"? It was the first home of LATCC and was called that, not because it was of any a historical importance but because it tilted and they put railway sleepers under it to raise one side.
>>
I'd be interested to hear more.. Prior to LATCC it was the Southern ATCC at London Airport. Prior to that wasn't it at Uxbridge??
>>
I'd be interested to hear more.. Prior to LATCC it was the Southern ATCC at London Airport. Prior to that wasn't it at Uxbridge??
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London UK
Age: 74
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC history
After the war the military still retained control over the UK airspace.
When commercial aviation got back on its legs the ATC responsibilities were shared between the two. But with the military still flying the greater number of aircraft, the civilians took back seat.
However, the number of air-misses between largley unregulated military aircraft and the civies resulted in letters to the air ministry complaining about them. In a short while the commercial aircraft operating in and out of the london area was greater than the military and after many furious arguments it was agreed that a civilian ATC system would be the controlling authority for the new Metropoliton Control Zone.
An operations room was needed and an old hut about 60 ft long by 30 foot was found in the grounds of Hillingdon House . However it tilted down on one side and three old railway sleepers were used to raise it on one side. That was why it was called the "Listed Building"
The Centre was divided into north and south with dedicated controllers on raised platforms, with a military liaision officer down the end. The controller in the middle comunicated clearances given by the controllers to the various airfields within or just outside the Zone.
Initially, the Zone only came into force during IFR.
All the best.
xpz67
xpz67
When commercial aviation got back on its legs the ATC responsibilities were shared between the two. But with the military still flying the greater number of aircraft, the civilians took back seat.
However, the number of air-misses between largley unregulated military aircraft and the civies resulted in letters to the air ministry complaining about them. In a short while the commercial aircraft operating in and out of the london area was greater than the military and after many furious arguments it was agreed that a civilian ATC system would be the controlling authority for the new Metropoliton Control Zone.
An operations room was needed and an old hut about 60 ft long by 30 foot was found in the grounds of Hillingdon House . However it tilted down on one side and three old railway sleepers were used to raise it on one side. That was why it was called the "Listed Building"
The Centre was divided into north and south with dedicated controllers on raised platforms, with a military liaision officer down the end. The controller in the middle comunicated clearances given by the controllers to the various airfields within or just outside the Zone.
Initially, the Zone only came into force during IFR.
All the best.
xpz67
xpz67
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On a foreign shore trying a new wine diet. So far, I've lost 3days!
Age: 75
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaah, mention of the old 424 radar brought back many memories. It was the only radar I ever worked that required the controller to have 3 hands. One to tune the radar, another to servo the aerial up and down and a third to write the headings and levels in chinagraph on the screen. They don't build them like that anymore - thank God!!!
On the beach
On the beach
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My copy of British Air Traffic Control 1963 - 1973: Network DVD arrived today and I haven't watched all of it yet but from what I have seen I would strongly recommend it to anyone interested in seeing how ATC was. So far there has been footage including the London ATCC, Prestwick ATCC, Heathrow and Hurn airport and an explanation of the different roles of controllers at the ATCC.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London UK
Age: 74
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC History
Hi Vercingetorix.
I remember Mediator stage 1/2 very well. 1970 I joined and was on B Watch. D.H.H. Hall was the Supervisor if my failing memory serves me.
Loved it from the day I started.
Did any of you guys work at the Radar trials at Mildenhall in 1943?
Intruders were becoming a big problem as they followed the bomber stream returning to their bases. Joined the circuit and then shot down as many aircraft as possible.
IFF had already been in existance for some time but the equipment was very large, kept going off tune or just failing. The early experiments were carried out using Sunderlands. Eventually the size of the kit was reduced and reliability improved and it was decided to fit sets to a pair of Wellingtons.
A small radar tube (taken from a Flower Class Minesweeper)was set up behing a curtain in the control tower at Mildenhall for a demonstration. I think the scan was yellow with blue traces appearing on it.
The aircraft could be followed around the circuit but the two Wellingtons did NOT show as a double blip because both pilots had forgotten to switch the equipment on.
A Officer pointed to the radar screen and asked how did the operator know that it was not the enemy. Realising that all was not going well the operator replied by saying that when the aircraft flew into the overhead, they could all go onto the balcony, the aircraft would be lit and they could watch it fly overhead.
This they did, only to see a German light bomber drop a stick of bombs across the airfield. No one was injured.
Also there to watch the display was Vincent Millar who was pushing for more Flying Control in the RAF. He immediately saw the benefit that could be obtained by this piece of kit.
Interestingly, when they were experimenting with the setting up of the radar head, they found the best way to reduce ground echoes was to turn the head upside down and position it in a shallow hollow in the ground.
All the best.
xpz67
I remember Mediator stage 1/2 very well. 1970 I joined and was on B Watch. D.H.H. Hall was the Supervisor if my failing memory serves me.
Loved it from the day I started.
Did any of you guys work at the Radar trials at Mildenhall in 1943?
Intruders were becoming a big problem as they followed the bomber stream returning to their bases. Joined the circuit and then shot down as many aircraft as possible.
IFF had already been in existance for some time but the equipment was very large, kept going off tune or just failing. The early experiments were carried out using Sunderlands. Eventually the size of the kit was reduced and reliability improved and it was decided to fit sets to a pair of Wellingtons.
A small radar tube (taken from a Flower Class Minesweeper)was set up behing a curtain in the control tower at Mildenhall for a demonstration. I think the scan was yellow with blue traces appearing on it.
The aircraft could be followed around the circuit but the two Wellingtons did NOT show as a double blip because both pilots had forgotten to switch the equipment on.
A Officer pointed to the radar screen and asked how did the operator know that it was not the enemy. Realising that all was not going well the operator replied by saying that when the aircraft flew into the overhead, they could all go onto the balcony, the aircraft would be lit and they could watch it fly overhead.
This they did, only to see a German light bomber drop a stick of bombs across the airfield. No one was injured.
Also there to watch the display was Vincent Millar who was pushing for more Flying Control in the RAF. He immediately saw the benefit that could be obtained by this piece of kit.
Interestingly, when they were experimenting with the setting up of the radar head, they found the best way to reduce ground echoes was to turn the head upside down and position it in a shallow hollow in the ground.
All the best.
xpz67
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<Aaah, mention of the old 424 radar brought back many memories. It was the only radar I ever worked that required the controller to have 3 hands>
OTB, let me know if you wanna tear yourself off the beach and see one still in action. But only if it's not raining, otherwise it'll be cluttered out....unless you can bring a fourth hand for the Vertical Polarisation or FTC........
I understand that our 424 is older than the one in storage at Wroughton for the Science Museum!
Ha! Spares!
OTB, let me know if you wanna tear yourself off the beach and see one still in action. But only if it's not raining, otherwise it'll be cluttered out....unless you can bring a fourth hand for the Vertical Polarisation or FTC........
I understand that our 424 is older than the one in storage at Wroughton for the Science Museum!
Ha! Spares!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then there was the LATCC supervisor who allowed us to take off our jackets in hot weather.......
(Half of 'em at TC come in in beach wear now, of course.......)
(Half of 'em at TC come in in beach wear now, of course.......)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yah, bad form, Old Boy.....and rolling one's sleeves up and loosening one's tie....and calling ATCO 1s by their Christian names. But at least I was allowed to light me pipe and fog out the strips! How times have changed.....!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Surrey, Uk
Age: 72
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then there was the South Bank ATCO on D Watch LATCC in early '70s who came into work in jeans.
My word !!! He was spoken to by the watch supervisor and told to smarten himself up.
Next day he arrived in top hat and tails carrying a cane !!!!
Wonderful.
Clint.
My word !!! He was spoken to by the watch supervisor and told to smarten himself up.
Next day he arrived in top hat and tails carrying a cane !!!!
Wonderful.
Clint.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asgard
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sartorially speaking, the rot had set in by the time Mr Grubby and I started our cadetship. Nevertheless, eyebrows were raised when our course featured in "Airway". The photograph of us (during our PPL course, IIRC) caused some disquiet, as some of us were wearing leather jackets!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On a foreign shore trying a new wine diet. So far, I've lost 3days!
Age: 75
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Talkdownman,
Love to see an old 424 again. But work it? Nah. It'd take me a week to find the markers, rain or no rain. I hope yours is in a museum and not really being relied on for thrilling the travelling public!! Mind you having said that I did manage to talk down a Herald many years ago when all the south coast and his Channel Island alternates went out in fog and he decided to die in my hands. I managed to talk him down to half a mile (or maybe even a few feet further) but the silly bugger only saw one line of runway lights and decided he knew which side of the lights the runway was. And it wasn't the side he chose, but everyone lived to tell the tale.
On the beach (and staying there)
Love to see an old 424 again. But work it? Nah. It'd take me a week to find the markers, rain or no rain. I hope yours is in a museum and not really being relied on for thrilling the travelling public!! Mind you having said that I did manage to talk down a Herald many years ago when all the south coast and his Channel Island alternates went out in fog and he decided to die in my hands. I managed to talk him down to half a mile (or maybe even a few feet further) but the silly bugger only saw one line of runway lights and decided he knew which side of the lights the runway was. And it wasn't the side he chose, but everyone lived to tell the tale.
On the beach (and staying there)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OTB, We haven't got any markers so it's a two-miler 424 set up on the PEs only. No, it's not in a museum, but to see some of the operators one could be forgiven for thinking so.
It is reliable, in daily use, and it gets the big jets in. Dunno where we'd be without it!
It is reliable, in daily use, and it gets the big jets in. Dunno where we'd be without it!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<I have that photo, taken at Kidlington.>>
Jeezzz... what were you doing at Kidlington, Clint? I was there for about a year from mid-70. It was a corrective posting before I joined the Ministry and went to Hounslow Good Yard.. Interesting place - I still have the grey hairs and nervous twitch from the experience.
Jeezzz... what were you doing at Kidlington, Clint? I was there for about a year from mid-70. It was a corrective posting before I joined the Ministry and went to Hounslow Good Yard.. Interesting place - I still have the grey hairs and nervous twitch from the experience.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Surrey, Uk
Age: 72
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vercingetorix
All correct. MG is still with us, living on the south coast. See him regularly.
HD
When I did my cadetship, '73 - '76, OAT Kidlington was one of the flying schools that trained cadets up to PPL in just one month. The other schools were at White Waltham and Cambridge if I recall. Best month of the entire cadetship. I already had a PPL so got 40 hours of flying for free and best of all, they were paying me too !!!!
How things have changed.
C.
All correct. MG is still with us, living on the south coast. See him regularly.
HD
When I did my cadetship, '73 - '76, OAT Kidlington was one of the flying schools that trained cadets up to PPL in just one month. The other schools were at White Waltham and Cambridge if I recall. Best month of the entire cadetship. I already had a PPL so got 40 hours of flying for free and best of all, they were paying me too !!!!
How things have changed.
C.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, and the EGTK SATCO was among the calmest people I have ever met. He'd put a hat on very willingly and work the busy circuit like the best of 'em. He was Phil Frogley, one of the first test pilots on hovercraft! When he was seriously annoyed he would say "Shave off". Real gent of the old school, sadly no longer with us.. Mike East was Dep SATCO and ATCOs were Les Binyon (died in a car crash in Africa), Gordon Bush (now returned home to Canada), John Downey (dunno where?) and Richard Piggot (dunno where?). The ATCA was one Mike Hockley, later in the CAA, who worked 28 hours every day!
Great place to have a nervous breakdown!!!
Great place to have a nervous breakdown!!!