Cwmbran ATC
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Cwmbran ATC
When trainees complete the ATC Course at Cwmbran BAE College.. can they get employment in airports all over the UK (Heathrow, Liverpool, Bristol, Cardiff etc)............
There might be a thread about this topic however I cannot find this...?
Im enquiring about this before I go for my tests for NATs in London in March...
Thanks
There might be a thread about this topic however I cannot find this...?
Im enquiring about this before I go for my tests for NATs in London in March...
Thanks
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It's certainly possible to pay for your own rating at one of the two non-NATS training establishments and get a job afterwards - with a tower rating you should be able to land a job at a smaller regional airfield. You might be lucky and get a job at one of the larger ones, like Liverpool, East Mids or Newcastle, although generally speaking they are more likely to be in the position to take only fully-rated and experienced ATCOs, if they so choose.
As for getting a job at an airport where NATS provide ATC, that is extremely unlikely. These airports are (in the UK):
Aberdeen; Glasgow; Edinburgh; Belfast Aldergrove; Manchester; Birmingham; Luton; Stansted; Cardiff; Bristol; Farnborough; Heathrow; London City; Gatwick; Southampton.
NATS, when they do recruit externally (and it's not that often), take on only fully-rated and experienced controllers. If you want to get into NATS without passing their ab-intio selection process and training programme, then you will need to have both tower and approach radar ratings as well as a few years experience under your belt, ideally at one of the bigger non-NATS airports. Sorry if that sounds negative, but that's the way it is. On a positive note, it can be, and has been, done.
Your best option by far, though, is passing the NATS ab-initio selection. Good luck with that!
As for getting a job at an airport where NATS provide ATC, that is extremely unlikely. These airports are (in the UK):
Aberdeen; Glasgow; Edinburgh; Belfast Aldergrove; Manchester; Birmingham; Luton; Stansted; Cardiff; Bristol; Farnborough; Heathrow; London City; Gatwick; Southampton.
NATS, when they do recruit externally (and it's not that often), take on only fully-rated and experienced controllers. If you want to get into NATS without passing their ab-intio selection process and training programme, then you will need to have both tower and approach radar ratings as well as a few years experience under your belt, ideally at one of the bigger non-NATS airports. Sorry if that sounds negative, but that's the way it is. On a positive note, it can be, and has been, done.
Your best option by far, though, is passing the NATS ab-initio selection. Good luck with that!
Last edited by rodan; 21st Feb 2009 at 02:01.
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I was one of the very early, if not the first, ATCO to be posted to Heathrow not having completed the usual Ministry of Aviation courses. I was employed abroad as an ATCO and sat the UK licence exams whilst on leave and I then spent a year working non-State. All this was accepted as experience in lieu of the usual education and technical requirements, etc. I just had to attend an APC RAD Course at Bournemouth before starting at Heathrow. Certainly had a few tongues wagging in the rest room behind my back!
If you simply did a training course at one of the exterior colleges you would find it very, very difficult to validate at a busy unit so go for NATS to start with..
Good luck chrisy08...
If you simply did a training course at one of the exterior colleges you would find it very, very difficult to validate at a busy unit so go for NATS to start with..
Good luck chrisy08...
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If you simply did a training course at one of the exterior colleges you would find it very, very difficult to validate at a busy unit so go for NATS to start with..
).I have seen both sims and they are not wildly different in traffic levels.
But as has been said previously it would be difficult for a non-NATS Atco to get in through an external application at present, and certainly not without a valid ticket. So go for NATS from the outset.
There are some great Non NATS units out there all very challenging in there own way. Some class D, many class G with its own set of challenges.
Examples Class D - Newcastle, Liverpool, Doncaster, Leeds Bradford, Bournemouth etc. etc.
Class G - Norwich, Blackpool, Newquay, Filton, Southend, Manston, Lydd, Carlisle, Shoreham, Gloucester, Plymouth etc etc etc.
If you can get into NATS on the cadetship, go for it but an equally good career can be had outside but possibly at your own expense.
Last edited by Barnaby the Bear; 21st Feb 2009 at 17:22.
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Traffic levels in the sims for NATS students at college are a lot above the ICAO/CAA standard. When the college runs courses for other countries the traffic levels are dropped by a fair amount to the ICAO standard (The ICAO aerodrome course traffic levels are around a third of the traffic levels used for NATS students). I would imagine that the traffic levels at the other colleges are also around the ICAO standard.
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I can only go by my experience. Having passed the NATS ADC course at BOH on the UK course, I didn't see a great deal of difference in traffic levels when observing the non NATS sim..
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We had a course from Hong Kong doing the Aerodrome course while I was there. There was a significant difference in traffic levels. When we asked an instructor he said that the ICAO standard traffic levels were around a third less than the NATS standard, at least on the ADI sims.
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In answer to the original question, if you can get into NATS do it that way. It's by far the cheapest way - and if you can fit into the NATS mindset it probably offers a better range of options for the future. My final thought is that if you end up staying with one organisation for the whole of your career, NATS is almost certainly going to be the best option financially. But there are other choices and there are plenty of people out there who followed different paths.
On the point of traffic levels during sim training, I'm fascinated to know what ICAO standard traffic levels are - I don't think I've ever seen it described anywehere! I've always assumed that the standars on any particular training course were largely defined by the customers' needs.
In reality, I suspect that the liklihood of success is determined more by natural talent, quality of OJT and trainee attitude than by what he or she can handle in a sim.
On the point of traffic levels during sim training, I'm fascinated to know what ICAO standard traffic levels are - I don't think I've ever seen it described anywehere! I've always assumed that the standars on any particular training course were largely defined by the customers' needs.
In reality, I suspect that the liklihood of success is determined more by natural talent, quality of OJT and trainee attitude than by what he or she can handle in a sim.
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For the rating part of the course (at least on ADI), the traffic levels are very similar for both courses (ICAO and the NATS UK course - the ICAO exercises were adapted from the UK ones, but with some different procedures). The post-grad part of the course was not done by the Hong Kong students and the traffic levels are upped considerably and split air/ground.
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Glamdring, are you suggesting that non-NATS units send their students on ICAO courses ? because i assure you they do not.
Heres one to think about. i think it could be argued that a ATCO who has worked some time in class G and then moved to a NATS unit would have a more experience and understanding of the UK ATC system
than a ATCO of equal time experience who has only spent his time in NATS
cocoon.
When i did my courses at Bailbrook they were exactly the same as the
NATS courses at that time. But the ICAO courses were arranged as per the customers requirements whether that be for Norway or the Arab nations that trained at the college.
Heres one to think about. i think it could be argued that a ATCO who has worked some time in class G and then moved to a NATS unit would have a more experience and understanding of the UK ATC system
than a ATCO of equal time experience who has only spent his time in NATS
cocoon.
When i did my courses at Bailbrook they were exactly the same as the
NATS courses at that time. But the ICAO courses were arranged as per the customers requirements whether that be for Norway or the Arab nations that trained at the college.
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Getting back to the original question.........
Once you've passed the course then it's just a matter of finding a vacancy and giving it a go. The instructors are normally a good source for the latest gossip of who's looking.
Good luck with the testing.
Once you've passed the course then it's just a matter of finding a vacancy and giving it a go. The instructors are normally a good source for the latest gossip of who's looking.
Good luck with the testing.
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NATS is, without a doubt the best option. If you can get a cadetship all the course costs are paid for you and you also get a salary, not much, but with other allowances it's survivable. The downside is that you won't get much choice as to if you want to do aerodrome or area control.
If you can't get a cadetship for whatever reason then your options are limited to either Cwmbran or ASTAC, in both cases you have to pay up front for the full costs of each course and if you fail at any stage, you'll be kicked out with no reimbursement of course costs whatsoever.
As far as employment is concerned, not withstanding a cadetship, you have two options:
1) Get a job at a non NATS airport as an ATSA, do your time, usually 18 months to two years, then apply for any internal ATCO training schemes which may be available.
Pros: You don't have to pay for any costs, you get your salary and all expenses paid while you are training, if you don't make it, it's highly likely that you'll be able to walk back into your ATSA job.
Cons: You might have to sign a bonding agreement, although less common these days.
2) Pay for the initial aerodrome course yourself and approach an a non Nats airport to get them to pay for the APP and APS course if you are successful.
This is not as uncommon as some folk may think and is a good ploy if you are absolutely confident of passing the first hurdle.
Pros: You get a salary and costs paid during the APP and APS costs, guaranteed job if you pass.
Cons: Fail any part of any of the courses and you are out on your ear.
Best of luck to you.
If you can't get a cadetship for whatever reason then your options are limited to either Cwmbran or ASTAC, in both cases you have to pay up front for the full costs of each course and if you fail at any stage, you'll be kicked out with no reimbursement of course costs whatsoever.
As far as employment is concerned, not withstanding a cadetship, you have two options:
1) Get a job at a non NATS airport as an ATSA, do your time, usually 18 months to two years, then apply for any internal ATCO training schemes which may be available.
Pros: You don't have to pay for any costs, you get your salary and all expenses paid while you are training, if you don't make it, it's highly likely that you'll be able to walk back into your ATSA job.
Cons: You might have to sign a bonding agreement, although less common these days.
2) Pay for the initial aerodrome course yourself and approach an a non Nats airport to get them to pay for the APP and APS course if you are successful.
This is not as uncommon as some folk may think and is a good ploy if you are absolutely confident of passing the first hurdle.
Pros: You get a salary and costs paid during the APP and APS costs, guaranteed job if you pass.
Cons: Fail any part of any of the courses and you are out on your ear.
Best of luck to you.
For the record, though, the terms "cadetship"and employment as an "ATCO Cadet" went out with the ark. Trainee ATCOs today are not on any deal remotely recognisable as what we would have inferred from those titles!
2 s
2 s
niknak
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I suppose that's what happens when you get old, but even from the distance of my bath chair, I can spot a "trainee atco" a million miles away. Now then. wheres my warm milk........
