The term "Souls on board"
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Madrid FIR
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of the posts so far seem to assume a 'simple' crash in the middle of an empty airfield, with the airframe sufficiently intact that the bodies/souls inside are whole bodies that can be counted, instead of a gruesome collection of parts.
How about a Citation carrying 5 P/SOB that comes down in an urban area. The fire crew search the wreckage and surrounding area and find 12 bodies. Is that all 5 from the aircraft plus 7 innocent bystanders? Or is it 7bystanders, 2 from the aircraft, with 3 still trapped inside? Or some other combination? My feeling is that the rescue services will continue to search the wreckage until they are convinced there is nobody left.
Looks like most of the posters are ATC or pilots arguing their own point of view. It would be very interesting to hear some ideas on the subject from professional firemen.
How about a Citation carrying 5 P/SOB that comes down in an urban area. The fire crew search the wreckage and surrounding area and find 12 bodies. Is that all 5 from the aircraft plus 7 innocent bystanders? Or is it 7bystanders, 2 from the aircraft, with 3 still trapped inside? Or some other combination? My feeling is that the rescue services will continue to search the wreckage until they are convinced there is nobody left.
Looks like most of the posters are ATC or pilots arguing their own point of view. It would be very interesting to hear some ideas on the subject from professional firemen.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In the South !
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has been done before 
here: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/324...tion-soul.html
My view remains the same
ref the Eindhoven C130 Birdstrike accident:
GA, Business or Charter we always ask for POB before arrival and before departure. You'll be surprised how many times the POB actually differs from that on the flight plan (assuming it's not VFR and NOT filled a plan!)
Radarman - I can put you in touch with the man from the CIV POl Major Disaster Team who used to specialise in body part recovery. A twin that went in vertically near Humberside many years ago created circa 1240 different parts!! Allegedly the dispersal of remains is normally a good indication if it was a survivable event.
Nevertheless - depending upon the nationality of the crew the response to the simple "Confirm total number of persons on board?" question can elicit numerous permutations of answers. Personally I'll nag until I get the answer I NEED in order to ensure when said aircraft has a gravity induced event I don't end up in prison like the controller did at Eindhoven. It’s a self preservation thing.........
here: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/324...tion-soul.htmlMy view remains the same
Personally - I only ever refer to POB. Souls on board is just another gash ambiguous Americanism!
CAP 694
Quote:
ITEM 19: SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION
NOTE: This information is not normally included in transmission of flight plan
message. It is retained, however, at location of the filing of the FPL.
ENDURANCE:
After E/ INSERT a 4-figure group giving the fuel endurance in hours and minutes.
PERSONS ON BOARD:
After P/ INSERT the total number of persons (passengers and crew) on board, when
required by the appropriate ATS authority.
INSERT "TBN" (to be notified) if the total number of persons is not known
at the time of filing.
It don't exist and shouldn't be used!
Just my two peneth.
Wait a minute, cars pulled up........****, the phraseology police....
CAP 694
Quote:
ITEM 19: SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION
NOTE: This information is not normally included in transmission of flight plan
message. It is retained, however, at location of the filing of the FPL.
ENDURANCE:
After E/ INSERT a 4-figure group giving the fuel endurance in hours and minutes.
PERSONS ON BOARD:
After P/ INSERT the total number of persons (passengers and crew) on board, when
required by the appropriate ATS authority.
INSERT "TBN" (to be notified) if the total number of persons is not known
at the time of filing.
It don't exist and shouldn't be used!
Just my two peneth.
Wait a minute, cars pulled up........****, the phraseology police....
A quick cut and paste from google
Quote:
In the business of risk management, we frequently discuss abstract concepts such as active failures, latent conditions, causal effects as well as links in the chain of events that contribute to an accident. On July 15, 1996, a Belgian Air Force C-130 Hercules crashed at Eindhoven Air Base in the Netherlands, resulting in 34 fatalities and 7 serious injuries. The tragic circumstances surrounding this accident provide a poignant message that dramatically shifts abstract concepts into gut-wrenching reality.
The Hercules departed Melsbroek, Belgium, for Eindhoven Air Base via Villafranca and Rimini in Italy. On board were 37 passengers and 4 crew members. Of the 37 passengers, 36 were armed forces musicians who had given several performances in Italy.
The Hercules arrived ahead of schedule at Eindhoven, and was cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04. The bird control officer and ATC staff failed to detect that a large, mixed flock of lapwings and starlings was sitting near the runway in grass, which had recently been mowed but had not been raked.
Just prior to touchdown, approximately 500 to 600 of these small birds were observed by the flight crew, who elected to carry out a missed approach. During the overshoot, the No. 1 and No. 2 engines were severely damaged by bird ingestion. The crew also feathered the No. 3 engine, likely believing that this engine was also damaged. With only the No. 4 engine producing power, the aircraft yawed approximately 70 degrees to the left, banked approximately 35 degrees to the left, lost altitude and crashed into the ground. The fuel tanks ruptured and flames engulfed the aircraft.
While the aircraft was still airborne, ATC staff activated the crash alarm, and emergency response staff reacted immediately. A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft, with the result that backup fire fighters did not respond. A further assumption that the flight crew could not have survived the fire led to the decision not to enter the severely damaged aircraft (see photo). Because of these assumptions, more than 25 min were lost in the rescue effort. Meanwhile, survivors were unable to evacuate the aircraft because the doors had been damaged in the crash. Survivors were evacuated to the local hospitals 40 min after the accident.
Had more effective communications taken place during the initial calls, especially regarding the number of people on board, the fire fighters would have responded accordingly and possibly reduced the number of casualties.
Quote:
In the business of risk management, we frequently discuss abstract concepts such as active failures, latent conditions, causal effects as well as links in the chain of events that contribute to an accident. On July 15, 1996, a Belgian Air Force C-130 Hercules crashed at Eindhoven Air Base in the Netherlands, resulting in 34 fatalities and 7 serious injuries. The tragic circumstances surrounding this accident provide a poignant message that dramatically shifts abstract concepts into gut-wrenching reality.
The Hercules departed Melsbroek, Belgium, for Eindhoven Air Base via Villafranca and Rimini in Italy. On board were 37 passengers and 4 crew members. Of the 37 passengers, 36 were armed forces musicians who had given several performances in Italy.
The Hercules arrived ahead of schedule at Eindhoven, and was cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04. The bird control officer and ATC staff failed to detect that a large, mixed flock of lapwings and starlings was sitting near the runway in grass, which had recently been mowed but had not been raked.
Just prior to touchdown, approximately 500 to 600 of these small birds were observed by the flight crew, who elected to carry out a missed approach. During the overshoot, the No. 1 and No. 2 engines were severely damaged by bird ingestion. The crew also feathered the No. 3 engine, likely believing that this engine was also damaged. With only the No. 4 engine producing power, the aircraft yawed approximately 70 degrees to the left, banked approximately 35 degrees to the left, lost altitude and crashed into the ground. The fuel tanks ruptured and flames engulfed the aircraft.
While the aircraft was still airborne, ATC staff activated the crash alarm, and emergency response staff reacted immediately. A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft, with the result that backup fire fighters did not respond. A further assumption that the flight crew could not have survived the fire led to the decision not to enter the severely damaged aircraft (see photo). Because of these assumptions, more than 25 min were lost in the rescue effort. Meanwhile, survivors were unable to evacuate the aircraft because the doors had been damaged in the crash. Survivors were evacuated to the local hospitals 40 min after the accident.
Had more effective communications taken place during the initial calls, especially regarding the number of people on board, the fire fighters would have responded accordingly and possibly reduced the number of casualties.
Okay - I've edited out some data but the upshot was that ATC were aware of the Pob but didn't pass it on. The Fire crew thought the crew had died and didn't enter the aircraft. The bandsman in the back couldn't get out and subsequent post mortem examination revealed they died of smoke inhalation. HAD the pob been passed and had the Fire crew been aware and entered the aircraft post accident those in the back would have survived. That's why we nag for POB.
I remain to be corrected on some of the finer details of the case as it's some years since I used to lecture on Aircraft Accident Management - but the gist of the case is about right.
I remain to be corrected on some of the finer details of the case as it's some years since I used to lecture on Aircraft Accident Management - but the gist of the case is about right.
How about a Citation carrying 5 P/SOB that comes down in an urban area. The fire crew search the wreckage and surrounding area and find 12 bodies. Is that all 5 from the aircraft plus 7 innocent bystanders? Or is it 7bystanders, 2 from the aircraft, with 3 still trapped inside? Or some other combination? My feeling is that the rescue services will continue to search the wreckage until they are convinced there is nobody left.
Nevertheless - depending upon the nationality of the crew the response to the simple "Confirm total number of persons on board?" question can elicit numerous permutations of answers. Personally I'll nag until I get the answer I NEED in order to ensure when said aircraft has a gravity induced event I don't end up in prison like the controller did at Eindhoven. It’s a self preservation thing.........
This is such a ridiculous thread. I'm off to bed, gonna go get angry over something really not that worth while like why Jif changed its name to Cif. WTF IS CIF!? I'm really going to have a good stew over that for a millisecond.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In the South !
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Personally I'll nag until I get the answer I NEED in order to ensure when said aircraft has a gravity induced event I don't end up in prison like the controller did at Eindhoven.
So much for TRM....
Personally I'll nag until I get the answer I NEED in order to ensure when said aircraft has a gravity induced event I don't end up in prison like the controller did at Eindhoven.
So much for TRM....
Last edited by ATCO Fred; 10th Feb 2009 at 13:55.
