UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 401
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From: at home
Hi Chiglet
yep, true - but just for the sake of the younger readers, perhaps you'd like to advise them in what year this took place!
things are a bit different now, as are the players.
(BTW - how's things oop north? PM if you dont wish to swear and upset the Mods!)
yep, true - but just for the sake of the younger readers, perhaps you'd like to advise them in what year this took place!
things are a bit different now, as are the players.
(BTW - how's things oop north? PM if you dont wish to swear and upset the Mods!)
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: at home
Ahh yes, '77 - when I was in Baghdad, and a lot of the staff now at LL TWR (and probably across NATS, too) were in Dad's bag. Its no good the older staff 'telling it how it was', 'cos it means SFA in relation to nowadays. We have to deal with what's going on right now, and frankly, even with Union support, I don't think the majority of staff, (for various and probably good personal reasons), have got the balls to take the Mgmt on - and a ballot for strike action would probably prove it.
It is a tough (aviation) world out there, especially outside of NATS. For some of us, just holding on to a job is going to be a result this year, let alone thinking about a fckn pay rise! Those who are in the more 'safer' jobs/areas of NATS will not be sticking their necks out to help those whose jobs are on the line - but they will expect these same people to support them in aid of a pay claim!
and thats where it all goes to pot, both from the Unions' perspective, and within the workforce itself - too many people with different priorities, and not an ounce of 'we're in it together' between the lot of 'em.
It is a tough (aviation) world out there, especially outside of NATS. For some of us, just holding on to a job is going to be a result this year, let alone thinking about a fckn pay rise! Those who are in the more 'safer' jobs/areas of NATS will not be sticking their necks out to help those whose jobs are on the line - but they will expect these same people to support them in aid of a pay claim!
and thats where it all goes to pot, both from the Unions' perspective, and within the workforce itself - too many people with different priorities, and not an ounce of 'we're in it together' between the lot of 'em.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: South of the border
1977 - a time of honesty and short trousers!
The union is NOT just the handful of people that represents its members -- the union is ALL of its members.
Therefore DO NOT rely on the union reps to sort this out... help and assist them.
The union reps need to put the message out to all members... but don't sit back and let them do all the work - HELP THEM - and also 'keep them honest' by telling them what they can do better (in realtime - not a few months later when its all over).
If the membership are balloted then we all need to do our bit to spread the word and get people voting (and voting in our favour).
I think that anything less than RPI+1 is a kick in the teeth so I'm gonna do everything I can to ensure I get it.
The union is NOT just the handful of people that represents its members -- the union is ALL of its members.
Therefore DO NOT rely on the union reps to sort this out... help and assist them.
The union reps need to put the message out to all members... but don't sit back and let them do all the work - HELP THEM - and also 'keep them honest' by telling them what they can do better (in realtime - not a few months later when its all over).
If the membership are balloted then we all need to do our bit to spread the word and get people voting (and voting in our favour).
I think that anything less than RPI+1 is a kick in the teeth so I'm gonna do everything I can to ensure I get it.
Last edited by RPIplus1; 17th February 2009 at 09:38.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: england
I would NOT support industrial action, regardless of small payrise, pay freeze or pay cut. We shot ourselves in the foot with the pension negotiations. Even if the pension fiasco was a forgone conclusion, why we couldn't at the very least get a payrise out of the YES vote, I will never know.
I read the article in the Prospect paper, and the reply stinks of a cover-up. Maybe they were trying to see the reactions it would cause. I will be looking at cancelling my prospect membership, and would be grateful if someone could give me advice in terms of how this could effect me in regards to my licence and other employment issues, and wether GATCO or any other organisation could be just as suitable for an ATCOs need.
I read the article in the Prospect paper, and the reply stinks of a cover-up. Maybe they were trying to see the reactions it would cause. I will be looking at cancelling my prospect membership, and would be grateful if someone could give me advice in terms of how this could effect me in regards to my licence and other employment issues, and wether GATCO or any other organisation could be just as suitable for an ATCOs need.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 151
Likes: 3
From: Dorset
As for what action should be required, well I always thought that the idea of a weeks strike plan was a good one.
Monday: AC walk out
Tuesday: TC
Wednesday: MACC
Thurs: SCottish
Fri: Oceanic
Sat: Well lets give the CTC a day, so they can feel like part of it (only kidding all you CTCers out there)
Sun: Well the lord did say we needed a day of rest
Mon: Revert to above...
Monday: AC walk out
Tuesday: TC
Wednesday: MACC
Thurs: SCottish
Fri: Oceanic
Sat: Well lets give the CTC a day, so they can feel like part of it (only kidding all you CTCers out there)
Sun: Well the lord did say we needed a day of rest
Mon: Revert to above...
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: at home
agreed - and if the issues weren't so serious, we might even think it rather funny 
lets hope that NATS Mgmt aren't thinking that a future partial sell-off of NSL assets would be the 'cash-cow' that keeps good old NERL afloat and the CTC in Lattes! I wonder who would be standing up for who in that event??
lets hope that NATS Mgmt aren't thinking that a future partial sell-off of NSL assets would be the 'cash-cow' that keeps good old NERL afloat and the CTC in Lattes! I wonder who would be standing up for who in that event??
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Swanwick
Hey, I know when I'm wrong
you know what, i know when i'm wrong. and i'm wrong... I didnt think the airports would wanna get dragged into this, I know you're contracts are sometimes delicate, but I also know that many of you feel disillusioned by all this!
I just thought maximum impact would be effected by the fewest staff by doing it centre by centre... though the thought that I would not back my NSL colleagues up if it came to a head, would boil my blood! One union member, all union members!
But as i said, I was wrong not to involve you guys in my post... I've never said I wasnt an idiot...
I just thought maximum impact would be effected by the fewest staff by doing it centre by centre... though the thought that I would not back my NSL colleagues up if it came to a head, would boil my blood! One union member, all union members!
But as i said, I was wrong not to involve you guys in my post... I've never said I wasnt an idiot...
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 239
Likes: 11
From: southampton
What about every ATCO that works in an office and holds a validation, gets a salary that is appropriate to the task they actually do for 90% of the time and then gets a daily rate when they have to turn up to get their hours? That should save some money without having to get rid of jobs.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Down the front of my briefs
The thing is, the switch from ATCO to non-ATCO often doesn't save that much money as an on cost.
Most office-bound ATCO jobs when they get converted to non-ATCO tend to get converted to T&S B or C grade posts which, although are paid a bit less than top-of-the-band Band 5 ATCO 2s, are paid as much as many long-serving ATCO 3s out there.
The big benefit comes from getting the sunk cost of the trained ATCO back in the Ops room. That's if they validate...
Most office-bound ATCO jobs when they get converted to non-ATCO tend to get converted to T&S B or C grade posts which, although are paid a bit less than top-of-the-band Band 5 ATCO 2s, are paid as much as many long-serving ATCO 3s out there.
The big benefit comes from getting the sunk cost of the trained ATCO back in the Ops room. That's if they validate...
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: at home
"One union member, all union members!"
and here is the root cause of the problem - we've got two fckn Unions! So how the hell any Union Rep expects staff across the board to stand up for each other and deliver a real show of force to the Mgmt just totally beggars belief! PCS and Prospect have a history of NOT working together, nor in each other's interests - and this goes right back (probably) even as far as Chiglet's 1977 'power to the ATCAs!' victory. It has certainly been the case since I joined.
Having a single Union representing the entire workforce will not in itself achieve 'solidarity' - there's still personal circumstances that will come into play when deciding how one will vote. However, it would be a start.
Gonz - the only thing NSL has left to get rid of is the support staff, and they won't hang around with that issue! I've tried selling my SAMOS stuff to autothrottle and friends (they're going to need it!
) - maybe you'd like to make an offer for a genuine, one owner, UNUSED headset??
and here is the root cause of the problem - we've got two fckn Unions! So how the hell any Union Rep expects staff across the board to stand up for each other and deliver a real show of force to the Mgmt just totally beggars belief! PCS and Prospect have a history of NOT working together, nor in each other's interests - and this goes right back (probably) even as far as Chiglet's 1977 'power to the ATCAs!' victory. It has certainly been the case since I joined.
Having a single Union representing the entire workforce will not in itself achieve 'solidarity' - there's still personal circumstances that will come into play when deciding how one will vote. However, it would be a start.
Gonz - the only thing NSL has left to get rid of is the support staff, and they won't hang around with that issue! I've tried selling my SAMOS stuff to autothrottle and friends (they're going to need it!
) - maybe you'd like to make an offer for a genuine, one owner, UNUSED headset??
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
From: Hants
Job cuts, pay rises and saving money
Medway
When you strike, you lose a days pension contribution. That's one very good reason why every union member should be involved. It's only fair as the strike action would be to benefit everyone!
As for job losses and saving money (an integral part of discussions over pay awards), a friend of a friend was at the hotel below.
Who happened to be there, but a group from NATS, taking part in a NATS 2 day meeting. This was this week - not 18 months ago before the economy started slowing down!
The hotel is 26.5 miles from Swanwick and 28.5miles from CTC in a more westerly direction i.e. further from the main routes, not closer, both of these locations have meeting rooms and catering facilities.
Saving Money?
Not if it means cutting luxury
Just cut operational staff and support jobs instead... pass me another glass of wine old chap
Having taken part in 2 day workshops before, the usual structure is
Day 1
Arrive, register, partake of coffee and biscuits.
Mid Morning - coffee break with nibbles
Lunch
Mid afternoon - Coffee break with nibbles
Evening meal with wine
Overnight stay (if you want it)
Day 2
Breakfast for the overnighters, a chance to read the newspaper delivered to your room
Mid Morning - coffee break with nibbles
Lunch
Mid afternoon - Coffee break with nibbles
Unlimited coffee, tea or water still/carbonated (bottled at hotel rates of course) during the rest of the day.
How much will this little lot cost the company??
If the website has whetted anyones appetite, here are directions on how to get to this budget hotel:
When you strike, you lose a days pension contribution. That's one very good reason why every union member should be involved. It's only fair as the strike action would be to benefit everyone!
As for job losses and saving money (an integral part of discussions over pay awards), a friend of a friend was at the hotel below.
Who happened to be there, but a group from NATS, taking part in a NATS 2 day meeting. This was this week - not 18 months ago before the economy started slowing down!
The hotel is 26.5 miles from Swanwick and 28.5miles from CTC in a more westerly direction i.e. further from the main routes, not closer, both of these locations have meeting rooms and catering facilities.
Saving Money?
Not if it means cutting luxury
Just cut operational staff and support jobs instead... pass me another glass of wine old chap
Having taken part in 2 day workshops before, the usual structure is
Day 1
Arrive, register, partake of coffee and biscuits.
Mid Morning - coffee break with nibbles
Lunch
Mid afternoon - Coffee break with nibbles
Evening meal with wine
Overnight stay (if you want it)
Day 2
Breakfast for the overnighters, a chance to read the newspaper delivered to your room
Mid Morning - coffee break with nibbles
Lunch
Mid afternoon - Coffee break with nibbles
Unlimited coffee, tea or water still/carbonated (bottled at hotel rates of course) during the rest of the day.
How much will this little lot cost the company??
If the website has whetted anyones appetite, here are directions on how to get to this budget hotel:
Helicopter Grid Reference
Grid Reference:
OS Map 195 Grid 254 037
Grid Reference:
OS Map 195 Grid 254 037
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: South of the border
Slightly off topic...
I know this is slightly off topic but thought it may be of interest...
BBC NEWS | Business | Watchdog issues pensions warning
Watchdog issues pensions warning
Employers must not use the downturn as an excuse to cut pension contributions while still paying dividends to shareholders, says a watchdog.
The UK Pensions Regulator said economic conditions were of "real concern" to employers with final salary schemes.
BBC NEWS | Business | Watchdog issues pensions warning
Watchdog issues pensions warning
Employers must not use the downturn as an excuse to cut pension contributions while still paying dividends to shareholders, says a watchdog.
The UK Pensions Regulator said economic conditions were of "real concern" to employers with final salary schemes.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
From: UK
There are a lot of ATCO managers out there! Some are very good indeed, many are 
so why pay them band 5 ATCO 1/2 rates for doing a T&S job?
If they want to continue doing the T&S job pay them T&S rates and regrade them, also ensuring that said post isd VN'd.
so why pay them band 5 ATCO 1/2 rates for doing a T&S job?If they want to continue doing the T&S job pay them T&S rates and regrade them, also ensuring that said post isd VN'd.