New Zealand ATC jobs
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Live in Taupiri, Waikato, work in the big smoke, New Zealand
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Conflict Alert...
As you quite rightly mention, I have only worked in the Regional business, but your posts suggest that you are quite out of touch with what ACTUALLY happens in Regional. The company OFTEN relies on the lack of knowledge that many new controllers have of the CEA, and their goodwill (if there is any) to make the roster work. Many problems that arise stem from breeches of the contract. What is printed in the CEA is all that matters. The company can REQUIRE you to work 1 in 10, 2 in 36....PERIOD.
If staff have to resort to taking sick leave to avoid fatigue then that is hardly a healthy way to run a business.
As you quite rightly mention, I have only worked in the Regional business, but your posts suggest that you are quite out of touch with what ACTUALLY happens in Regional. The company OFTEN relies on the lack of knowledge that many new controllers have of the CEA, and their goodwill (if there is any) to make the roster work. Many problems that arise stem from breeches of the contract. What is printed in the CEA is all that matters. The company can REQUIRE you to work 1 in 10, 2 in 36....PERIOD.
If staff have to resort to taking sick leave to avoid fatigue then that is hardly a healthy way to run a business.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Maths
CA
You have done some maths but used all the wrong figures
I get paid in Euros - averaging 2 NZD to 1 Euro
I have been gone for nearly 3 years now, and would be suprised if I would be earning much more than NZD130K if I had stayed. And that would be with about 10 recalls per year.
I have volunteered to do recalls where I am now, and got paid 4K just for putting my hand up - I will also get double Euros for the 4 or 5 recalls I may do in a year.
My current leave entitlement is almost exactly the same as NZ.
We do have a roster system better than 2 to 1 - it's 5 to 3.
I would bet that I am on position less than half the time I am work - that would be significantly less than 6 hours a day. All breaks are at least 30 minutes (10-20 minutes in NZ), and lunch is 1 to 1.5 hours (30-60 minutes in NZ).
I only pay 1.5% towards my pension - not 6% into a lump sum loss making super scheme
I may spend 1 Euro to buy something you get here for 1 NZD, but everying I save (which is more than I used to) is in Euros (remember 2 to 1)
Redo you maths and see what you think now
Many of my current work mates have asked about the NZ T's & C's, they are interested until they find out what they will get paid.
And I get to come home for a month of flying and summer weather
Life is Grand
You have done some maths but used all the wrong figures
I get paid in Euros - averaging 2 NZD to 1 Euro
I have been gone for nearly 3 years now, and would be suprised if I would be earning much more than NZD130K if I had stayed. And that would be with about 10 recalls per year.
I have volunteered to do recalls where I am now, and got paid 4K just for putting my hand up - I will also get double Euros for the 4 or 5 recalls I may do in a year.
My current leave entitlement is almost exactly the same as NZ.
We do have a roster system better than 2 to 1 - it's 5 to 3.
I would bet that I am on position less than half the time I am work - that would be significantly less than 6 hours a day. All breaks are at least 30 minutes (10-20 minutes in NZ), and lunch is 1 to 1.5 hours (30-60 minutes in NZ).
I only pay 1.5% towards my pension - not 6% into a lump sum loss making super scheme
I may spend 1 Euro to buy something you get here for 1 NZD, but everying I save (which is more than I used to) is in Euros (remember 2 to 1)
Redo you maths and see what you think now
Many of my current work mates have asked about the NZ T's & C's, they are interested until they find out what they will get paid.
And I get to come home for a month of flying and summer weather
Life is Grand
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Firstly I must apologize - I typed 33 instead of 31 for the annual leave.
Slackie, rumour has it you are moving to Oceanic - you will soon see how it works outside of regional.
ZKJAWS - as I said - good for you for making the move and yes you would be on at least 130k - if you were a TMA controller as you say you would be close to if not on the top step given the years you mentioned. The top step is basic around the 105k (dont have the exact figure with me) with another pay rise and STEP pending. We now have a step 21. Add to this your AIL (just use 30% as a round figure) gives you 136500k and that doesn't include your recalls or public holidays.
Slackie, rumour has it you are moving to Oceanic - you will soon see how it works outside of regional.
ZKJAWS - as I said - good for you for making the move and yes you would be on at least 130k - if you were a TMA controller as you say you would be close to if not on the top step given the years you mentioned. The top step is basic around the 105k (dont have the exact figure with me) with another pay rise and STEP pending. We now have a step 21. Add to this your AIL (just use 30% as a round figure) gives you 136500k and that doesn't include your recalls or public holidays.
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Jeez Jawz, given the circumstances you left the sandpit under and the way your new employer is treating Irish ATCO's in the media I would have thought Airways would have been the best ANSP you've worked for. 
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Short Memories
Airways treated their controllers in the media exactly the same way the Irish are now.
I believe that recently there has been a less than complementary article about ATCO,s in a national NZ paper, which was sanctioned by Airways Communications Department. Nothing changes.
As for the way I was treated at the end of my last employment - it wasn't much different from the way I was treated at Airways. At least the Omani's let me keep my headset, ID and access cards until after my shift had finished.
I believe that recently there has been a less than complementary article about ATCO,s in a national NZ paper, which was sanctioned by Airways Communications Department. Nothing changes.
As for the way I was treated at the end of my last employment - it wasn't much different from the way I was treated at Airways. At least the Omani's let me keep my headset, ID and access cards until after my shift had finished.
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Zkjaws,
How long were you at Airways for? I don't mean to pry but as someone who's starting out (applying) it would be good to know what I'm in for.
Do you know if in NZ you have to serve for 5yrs like they do in Oz? I don't want to get ahead of myself but it's good to know the bigger picture if you know what I mean.
If there's anything you (or anyone else) can tell me about working for Airways I'd be very appreciative.
How long were you at Airways for? I don't mean to pry but as someone who's starting out (applying) it would be good to know what I'm in for.
Do you know if in NZ you have to serve for 5yrs like they do in Oz? I don't want to get ahead of myself but it's good to know the bigger picture if you know what I mean.
If there's anything you (or anyone else) can tell me about working for Airways I'd be very appreciative.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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JAGH
Not sure if the above comments have helped you!
Conflict Alert obviously loves the place
Others are slightly more realistic............
Our salary scales are pretty open and easy to see, whats much harder to clarify is our cost of living and this is where I suggest you concentrate your research! NZ is a beaut place but it is becoming an expensive place to live. Controller life styles here are good when compared to a local factory worker for example but I know that controllers elsewhere do much better.
Having said that the place is becoming flooded with overseas controllers, such that within 10 years they will probably end up outnumbering the kiwis? It will be interesting to see how many elect to stay long term versus those that drift back overseas to earn more cash
Hope this helps
The Rottweiler
Not sure if the above comments have helped you!
Conflict Alert obviously loves the place
Others are slightly more realistic............
Our salary scales are pretty open and easy to see, whats much harder to clarify is our cost of living and this is where I suggest you concentrate your research! NZ is a beaut place but it is becoming an expensive place to live. Controller life styles here are good when compared to a local factory worker for example but I know that controllers elsewhere do much better.
Having said that the place is becoming flooded with overseas controllers, such that within 10 years they will probably end up outnumbering the kiwis? It will be interesting to see how many elect to stay long term versus those that drift back overseas to earn more cash
Hope this helps
The Rottweiler
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Conflict Alert obviously loves the place
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Hi I'm new to pprune but have been around a while in NZ. Regarding the posts by Conflict Alert, Slackie and Rotweiler, I would note a thing or two.
One, recalls are regarded as compulsory by the company but in fact anyone with a set of nuts can decline one by using caller ID and not answering the phone, or simply by advising they are fatigued. In they push it, simply ask for the instruction in writing, including an acknowledgement that you are fatigued and are doing the recall under duress. The problem then goes away.......
Two, Conflict Alert has led a sheltered existence if he/she thinks Airways has not used threats (up to dismissal) to coerce people to do recalls. I can recall up to a dozen of these situations including one of personal experience.
Three - NZ ATC is what it is. The pay is ok - no more, the country is what you make of it if a bit provincial, there are worse employers than Airways - though they don't know much about running an ATC system. The prime concern by the company seems to be that all the equipment looks really cool - too often this overshadows whether it works as advertised........................
Cheers all
One, recalls are regarded as compulsory by the company but in fact anyone with a set of nuts can decline one by using caller ID and not answering the phone, or simply by advising they are fatigued. In they push it, simply ask for the instruction in writing, including an acknowledgement that you are fatigued and are doing the recall under duress. The problem then goes away.......
Two, Conflict Alert has led a sheltered existence if he/she thinks Airways has not used threats (up to dismissal) to coerce people to do recalls. I can recall up to a dozen of these situations including one of personal experience.
Three - NZ ATC is what it is. The pay is ok - no more, the country is what you make of it if a bit provincial, there are worse employers than Airways - though they don't know much about running an ATC system. The prime concern by the company seems to be that all the equipment looks really cool - too often this overshadows whether it works as advertised........................
Cheers all
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Conflict Alert has led a sheltered existence
Last edited by conflict alert; 19th Feb 2010 at 18:53.
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I stand by my statements CA, which are true for tower or centre. True I have not heard of it happening for a year or two as things are pretty "quiet" these days -but threats will be used again as soon as a given manager runs out of tools and is afraid the traffic will stop.
You must know very well that in the centre if the admin lady can't find a shift it gets bucked up to managers inc. Threats are however more prevalent in domestic towers where the **** hits the fan earlier and the managers are brainwashed to keep the place open even if the duty controller has done 10 recalls in the previous month.
It would appear I've been around as long as you have but maybe you aren't close enough to the fray to here these things.
Anyway, this is all getting a bit petty. You stated you had never heard of someone being forced to word a recall. I know that is incorrect. that is really all there is here. Bye
You must know very well that in the centre if the admin lady can't find a shift it gets bucked up to managers inc. Threats are however more prevalent in domestic towers where the **** hits the fan earlier and the managers are brainwashed to keep the place open even if the duty controller has done 10 recalls in the previous month.
It would appear I've been around as long as you have but maybe you aren't close enough to the fray to here these things.
Anyway, this is all getting a bit petty. You stated you had never heard of someone being forced to word a recall. I know that is incorrect. that is really all there is here. Bye
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all very interesting guys.......
been reading intently all the comments and thanks to you all for them.
does anyone know where i can find out actual figures re salary/overtime etc?
regards
does anyone know where i can find out actual figures re salary/overtime etc?
regards
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, NZ
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Living in NZ
I started of in the UK working in the tower/approach for 3 a few years. After that me and my wife decided to give it a go in NZ, we lasted only 11 months, then with my wife being homesick (she's Irish), I got a job in Knock of all places, the idea being that I would hopefully get my foot in the door with the IAA and get a higher paying job. Unfortunately I didn't even get a shot at an interview. The people were brilliant and the west of Ireland is a great place to live but after a year we realised that maybe the grass was'nt quite as green as we thought. So we called our old employers back, cap in hand and we were both accepted back, this time earning more money due to the fact the union had just completed paytalks and the exchange rate was more favourable. This time I was'nt offered a relocation package which I didn't really expect but the package first time round was quite good. If you have any radar experience then you will more than likely be sent to Christchurch, which is called a city but is essentially a large town. The people of canterbury have a reputation as being hard nuts to crack but at Airways their is a friendly atmosphere amongst the staff with plenty of banter. Their is still a bit of us and them with management which can rear its head during paytalks but I think the wounds of the past, which I have no opinion on since I was'nt here, are starting to heal. The roster is genrally 4 on 2 off, each sector has its own hours but we genarally do two lates then two earlies, the idea being that it max's your time off, on a negative you get your roster about 6-8 weeks ahead of time, coming from nats with the rigid 6 on 4 off, I enjoyed being able to plan a year in advance and getting two weeks off, using 6 days leave. However our shifts are no longer than 7 and a half hours, invariably we get away an hour to half an hour early, sometimes longer on the weekends. You can be extended up to a maximum of 9 and half hours but this is voluntary and would only be used if someone has called in sick at the last minute or a replacement can't be found. As far as recalls go, their is no pressure to work them if you don't want to, the only obligation you have is that if you accept them you have to fill the sweetie jar. Some people get annoyed by being asked to work recalls and feel under pressure to work or feel the phonecall is intruding on their day and should'nt be asked at all. As far as the wording of the agreement goes you are making yourself available for the call that will ask whether you can work or not, it is entirely your choice whether you work or not. I have never felt any pressure to take a recall, invariably if I have nothing on, my wifes working and I have something I want to get, I do it, if not I don't. Likewise you call in sick for the day theirs no grilling from your boss the person on the line says " right, feel better" and then goes about getting someone to cover. . As for all the people leaving, it seems ATC the world over are having trouble holding onto the staff, as a non-kiwi I see kiwi's as travellers at heart, not the pike kind but just that part of a kiwi's lifetime experience is the big OE, management have cottoned on to this and seem to accept it as inevitable that staff are going to leave, so as long as people don't leave them in the lurch, i.e leave the next day, it has happened. Then I expect they will welcome you back like they did me. In addition these people bring back experience from working in busier environments. This time round I have been here a year and a half and so far have no plans to move, even if I wanted to it would make sence to stick as moving around every year doesn't look good on your c.v, but the truth be told I like living here. My wife and I live by the beach, I go for a run barefoot with the dog, if the surfs good I go for a surf. I play football with my mates, most are ex-pats so the standards not to bad. In the winter the ski slopes are an hour and a half drive away. On the negative, your salary will afford you a good lifestyle in NZ but if you came for a few years then left bare in mind whatever you have could be cut by 50 or 60 percent once the exchange rate takes over. Also things are expensive in NZ, affordable for you but in relation to the average kiwi its a ripoff. Clothes, eating out, weekly food shop, power bills, travel etc are all the same price as back home but technically more expensive because you earn less, insurance, asian cars, fuel and most importantly homes are cheaper in NZ. With the home front though you have to bear in mind that their are some homes over here that you would'nt house the cows in, central heating is unheard of and double glazing is only just starting to come in. The first time round we were lying in bed with woolly hats on and we could see our breath. Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say that its not perfect but I really like it here, will it be my home for the rest of my life, definately maybe
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Welcome redmaori, I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to back me up regards the recall process. One thing that hasn't been mentioned about the recalls (in the centre) is that you can have your Off Duty and/or Annual Leave days marked with an L which means you are non contactable or not available to work. Those that feel aggrieved at being rung up on OD days as you mention, should take the 2 minutes it would take to tell the admin lady to mark all their OD days with the L whenever the roster gets published for their sector.
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Thinking about moving...
Dear colleagues,
I'm a spanish ATC and, as you may have already heard in the media, the situation for us ATCs in my country these days is far away from being 'optimal'.
I have been talking for a while about moving away from the country with my wife and we both have the same point of view... I love my country, but the future I can foresee staying here is not what I have in mind for my two young children when they grow up, so there I go...
I've burned my eyes reading around the web about possible futures, and -believe it or not- the climate is a major issue in the 'selection process'. Being spanish, with such a mild climate, my wife NEEDS sun on her skin or I will suffer the consecuences, so Europe gets inmediatly discarded. My wife is a computer engineer (like me) with years of experience on banking, so I think that we both qualify. Long story short, NZ looks so promising to 'restart' our lifes, grow my children in a safe environment and with good universities and job opportunities once they grow older... I'm not looking for a temporary move, we're not that kind...
I wanted to ask you, New Zealanders, for some help, may you be so kind... Next week I wanted to go to your ambassy to get info about the procedures to migrate and all that stuff, but regarding the job there's no better info that yours. My biggest drawback is my operational english level, being it a bare 4 to 5. Ten years ago, when I began the ATC training course, it was 5 to 6, but I let it rot and my company (believe me!!!
) gave me NO courses to maintain my skills all over this time... I'm pretty sure that in a couple of months living in an english-speaking country I will be back at 5-6 or directly at 6...
Regarding my ATC license, as you may know, in Spain we get trained to work in any of TWR and radar/procedural enroute or APP, and later we receive a local annotation after some OJT so we can finally work in a specific ACC or TWR.
Could you give me some advice with the information I gave you before?? Would the company accept to begin the adaptation training BEFORE my english skills get to six?? Both the company and me would be taking a risk, I understand... As you see, my main concern is with that 6 in english, after two years of training and more than 4 in procedural APP/TWR and right now beginnig training in LECB ACC, the second busiest in Spain, I'm pretty sure about my ATC skills...
Thanks in advance, and hoping to hear from you soon..
Angel
P.S: Now reading my post back, if you read down to this, congrats!!! One more detail for you to see the spanish situation: some days ago, flying here in Spain, the pilots 'accepted' me in the cockpit and during the approach we had a TCAS resolution with another traffic... Taking into account the TCAS equipment on my plane had 6NM resolution (we had no previous advisory, I mean), I can sure you that the other traffic was soooooo near we almost ripped each other's decals off... The maneuver was ugly enough as to make the passengers get sick and some even ducked into their seats... It happened that I knew the ATCs on duty, and they told me that the one at work had NEVER taken a recall (120 hours/month was our contract worktime, recalls apart) and THAT day it was her 12th shift in 12 days, with another 10 more for the next 10 days...
That's about 200 hours/month, with 6 hours shifts, 4-5 free days/month. IMHO, our admin staff has gone crazy with the royal decree and forgot that our bussiness (at least mine) is SAFETY... Sorry for not being more specific about that issue, for obvious reasons... Once the reports get analysed and become public, more could be tell... Maybe this short scary story helps clarify the strong reasons behind my actions, and what it took to finally help me take the final decision...
I'm a spanish ATC and, as you may have already heard in the media, the situation for us ATCs in my country these days is far away from being 'optimal'.
I have been talking for a while about moving away from the country with my wife and we both have the same point of view... I love my country, but the future I can foresee staying here is not what I have in mind for my two young children when they grow up, so there I go...
I've burned my eyes reading around the web about possible futures, and -believe it or not- the climate is a major issue in the 'selection process'. Being spanish, with such a mild climate, my wife NEEDS sun on her skin or I will suffer the consecuences, so Europe gets inmediatly discarded. My wife is a computer engineer (like me) with years of experience on banking, so I think that we both qualify. Long story short, NZ looks so promising to 'restart' our lifes, grow my children in a safe environment and with good universities and job opportunities once they grow older... I'm not looking for a temporary move, we're not that kind...
I wanted to ask you, New Zealanders, for some help, may you be so kind... Next week I wanted to go to your ambassy to get info about the procedures to migrate and all that stuff, but regarding the job there's no better info that yours. My biggest drawback is my operational english level, being it a bare 4 to 5. Ten years ago, when I began the ATC training course, it was 5 to 6, but I let it rot and my company (believe me!!!
) gave me NO courses to maintain my skills all over this time... I'm pretty sure that in a couple of months living in an english-speaking country I will be back at 5-6 or directly at 6... Regarding my ATC license, as you may know, in Spain we get trained to work in any of TWR and radar/procedural enroute or APP, and later we receive a local annotation after some OJT so we can finally work in a specific ACC or TWR.
Could you give me some advice with the information I gave you before?? Would the company accept to begin the adaptation training BEFORE my english skills get to six?? Both the company and me would be taking a risk, I understand... As you see, my main concern is with that 6 in english, after two years of training and more than 4 in procedural APP/TWR and right now beginnig training in LECB ACC, the second busiest in Spain, I'm pretty sure about my ATC skills...
Thanks in advance, and hoping to hear from you soon..
Angel
P.S: Now reading my post back, if you read down to this, congrats!!! One more detail for you to see the spanish situation: some days ago, flying here in Spain, the pilots 'accepted' me in the cockpit and during the approach we had a TCAS resolution with another traffic... Taking into account the TCAS equipment on my plane had 6NM resolution (we had no previous advisory, I mean), I can sure you that the other traffic was soooooo near we almost ripped each other's decals off... The maneuver was ugly enough as to make the passengers get sick and some even ducked into their seats... It happened that I knew the ATCs on duty, and they told me that the one at work had NEVER taken a recall (120 hours/month was our contract worktime, recalls apart) and THAT day it was her 12th shift in 12 days, with another 10 more for the next 10 days...
That's about 200 hours/month, with 6 hours shifts, 4-5 free days/month. IMHO, our admin staff has gone crazy with the royal decree and forgot that our bussiness (at least mine) is SAFETY... Sorry for not being more specific about that issue, for obvious reasons... Once the reports get analysed and become public, more could be tell... Maybe this short scary story helps clarify the strong reasons behind my actions, and what it took to finally help me take the final decision...