ATC Pay Comparison
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And whilst we're on this subject maybe we should add into the 'pay equation' the TYPE of traffic as well as the levels.
Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.
Birmingham is kinda busy , moving people on big aircraft & they have to do there own radar. The midlands has reasonable living costs.
Now, stepping out of the NATS spectrum for a moment.
If I work at an airfield (of comparable size) & we only regularly have small aircraft, but we have A LOT of them movements (certainly comparable to a large NATS unit), why are we paid considerably less than the lowest band in NATS???
And then, why are pilots (generally) paid even more than (generally) most of us?
How should we grade salary levels on a unit to unit basis?
By number of aircraft movements?
By number of passenger movements?
By ratings held and used by controller?
By proximity to large city's & cost of living?
By age and experience?
By size of aircraft using the airport?
By the percentage of delays (or lack of)?
I think this pay thing comes down to the old adage; "ask 3 ATCOs a question, and get 6+ answers".
It's only when all ATCOs (NATS & non-NATS) "band" (no pun intended) together and decide what our fee is and on what factor that fee is based, can we move forward and harmonise our salaries to be more inline with the world market. We are, after all, a very skilled & highly specialised band of professionals who should get what we deserve IF we strive to attain it.
Until then I fear, the powers that be (or at least the ones with the purse strings) will just sit back and watch as the ATCOs collectively debate amongst themselves.
Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.
Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.
Birmingham is kinda busy , moving people on big aircraft & they have to do there own radar. The midlands has reasonable living costs.
Now, stepping out of the NATS spectrum for a moment.
If I work at an airfield (of comparable size) & we only regularly have small aircraft, but we have A LOT of them movements (certainly comparable to a large NATS unit), why are we paid considerably less than the lowest band in NATS???
And then, why are pilots (generally) paid even more than (generally) most of us?
How should we grade salary levels on a unit to unit basis?
By number of aircraft movements?
By number of passenger movements?
By ratings held and used by controller?
By proximity to large city's & cost of living?
By age and experience?
By size of aircraft using the airport?
By the percentage of delays (or lack of)?
I think this pay thing comes down to the old adage; "ask 3 ATCOs a question, and get 6+ answers".
It's only when all ATCOs (NATS & non-NATS) "band" (no pun intended) together and decide what our fee is and on what factor that fee is based, can we move forward and harmonise our salaries to be more inline with the world market. We are, after all, a very skilled & highly specialised band of professionals who should get what we deserve IF we strive to attain it.
Until then I fear, the powers that be (or at least the ones with the purse strings) will just sit back and watch as the ATCOs collectively debate amongst themselves.
Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.
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classicwings,
LL pax numbers have no bearing on ATCO salary.
LL pax numbers have no bearing on ATCO salary.
Last edited by classicwings; 16th Nov 2008 at 02:49.
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I would wager that the vast majority of us at LL would kill for the chance to do radar as well as tower. That was certainly the case in the rest room today when we discussed this thread.
Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one?
Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one?
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throw a dyce.
my coment on pax numbers was not to you, just as a general answer to others thinking it should possibly be in the equation of ATCO pay
And my point is that thames and luton or any other aproach only ATCO should not be getting band 5 pay for doing a job that if they were at the unit they service they would be getting band 2,3,4, (except LL) pay but no one has the nuts to sort it.. they basically get band 5 for being at swanwick, its a complete farce.
my coment on pax numbers was not to you, just as a general answer to others thinking it should possibly be in the equation of ATCO pay
And my point is that thames and luton or any other aproach only ATCO should not be getting band 5 pay for doing a job that if they were at the unit they service they would be getting band 2,3,4, (except LL) pay but no one has the nuts to sort it.. they basically get band 5 for being at swanwick, its a complete farce.
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GONZO
Firstly;
Errr...........................NO!
(Please bear in mind my light hearted comments again about Stansted handling more pax than Manchester- despite the fact that I know this has no relation to ATCO salaries at either unit) AND
Secondly;
Oh, I bet you all wish you had been employed by NATS in the 'golden era' when working in ATC was almost a paid hobby and airports (including LHR) still had combined Tower and Radar functions!!
PRIVATE SANDWICHES
I wish there was a better smiley in my menu box to emphasise the fact that I wasn't actually being serious in trying to relate pax no.s at airports to the wealth of ATCO's!
Firstly;
Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one?
(Please bear in mind my light hearted comments again about Stansted handling more pax than Manchester- despite the fact that I know this has no relation to ATCO salaries at either unit) AND Secondly;
I would wager that the vast majority of us at LL would kill for the chance to do radar as well as tower. That was certainly the case in the rest room today when we discussed this thread.
PRIVATE SANDWICHES
pax numbers have bugger all to do with ATCO pay.
Last edited by classicwings; 16th Nov 2008 at 10:05.
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Speaking as somebody who benefits from the rather odd situation at TC of everyone being on the same Band 5 money, I can see where your comments are coming from. I'm sure the company would save a fortune if respective approach sectors were paid the equivalent of their tower counterparts.
Unfortunately, I don't think you'd ever get that to stick now. Also, you'd have to offer people the opportunity to train on higher paid sectors to improve their pay....not a problem for me personally, I'd be more than happy to try and elevate my Band 4 status to Band 5.
Unfortunately, I don't think you'd ever get that to stick now. Also, you'd have to offer people the opportunity to train on higher paid sectors to improve their pay....not a problem for me personally, I'd be more than happy to try and elevate my Band 4 status to Band 5.
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Hasn't it always been the case within NATS whereby approach /area controllers are on a higher pay banding than aerodrome controllers?
This does relate mind you to a few (now retired) controllers I know who, bearing in mind their future enhanced paycheques, couldn't get through the front door of TC West Drayton quick enough when Stansted Radar moved down there and they said a big 'cheereo' to SS TWR!!
This does relate mind you to a few (now retired) controllers I know who, bearing in mind their future enhanced paycheques, couldn't get through the front door of TC West Drayton quick enough when Stansted Radar moved down there and they said a big 'cheereo' to SS TWR!!
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its the dozy few who pretty much refuse to do another approach sector that takes the piss. there are pleny i know of who are more than happy to do 2 but management give them the fob off and they sit bored as hell for the most part.
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Frilsy's original question was????????
Would like to help but our pay scales are kept under lock and key in the admin managers lair. If I was to guess I'd go for approx 43k to 58K for a fully valid controller. Oh and that's at Elvis' favourite airport
Would all those angry & frustrated NATS atcos kindly return to their numerous other threads on the subject
Would like to help but our pay scales are kept under lock and key in the admin managers lair. If I was to guess I'd go for approx 43k to 58K for a fully valid controller. Oh and that's at Elvis' favourite airport
Would all those angry & frustrated NATS atcos kindly return to their numerous other threads on the subject
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Fly Through
Is the 58K including any shift or other allowances or are they on top?
If they are on top 58K is roughly the top of scale at the 5th busiest airport within NATS and the country which begs the question why am I pi**ing about within NATS.
Is the 58K including any shift or other allowances or are they on top?
If they are on top 58K is roughly the top of scale at the 5th busiest airport within NATS and the country which begs the question why am I pi**ing about within NATS.
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Hootin':
No shift pay on top of that.
Interesting point of view! Several of our colleagues had a look at the relative hues of the grass recently and came to a different conclusion. They'll be joining you on your side of the fence very soon.
Mind you, it would be interesting to see the GP, NX and NT scales.
No shift pay on top of that.
Interesting point of view! Several of our colleagues had a look at the relative hues of the grass recently and came to a different conclusion. They'll be joining you on your side of the fence very soon.
Mind you, it would be interesting to see the GP, NX and NT scales.
Last edited by Foondoot; 17th Nov 2008 at 17:34.
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Elvis was here
I reckon Fly Through's guestimate is pretty much spot on - the only extras are for things like OJTI & LCE or a few additional admin tasks. The allowances are pretty poor though - in fact it's so long since they were changed, even old codgers like Cartman probably can't remember ! 
PPRuNe Tea Lady
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P****ing about in NATS
I'll give you 3 reasons
1 - Final salary pension
2 - LOL insurance
3 - working conditions
Trust me - I know of what I speak. I can't comment on other places but Elvis's favourite can't compete with NATS on any of those. That might be why a fair percentage of Elvis fans are leaving the building.
1 - Final salary pension
2 - LOL insurance
3 - working conditions
Trust me - I know of what I speak. I can't comment on other places but Elvis's favourite can't compete with NATS on any of those. That might be why a fair percentage of Elvis fans are leaving the building.
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Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.
Whilst you make a noble point in the globalised world, market forces apply and if you are making a greater revenue for whoever you work for, then the chances are that they will pay you a greater salary. Pilots, for instance, do not all earn the same; the larger the aircraft, the more complex the task, the higher the salary band so why should this premise not be the case for ATCOs?
You also make the point
Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.
P7
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Heathrow quite obviously should be one of the highest payed ATCO jobs in the UK.
However it is unrealistic to expect salaries to be decided primarily by the traffic a unit works.Otherwise a unit working 1000 a day on £60000 means a unit working a 100 a day are only going to get £6000 (taking it to the extreme i know) and that would mean HIAL would not get anybody. So in reality a lot of units have to offer salaries not too far behind the big airports in order to attract people and keep staff , regardless of the amount of traffic worked , but that is market forces. When people make a choice to work at unit it is not just down to money. Quality of life , family connections and general lifestyle choice etc. come into it. (contary to the old belief by some ,that if you work at non NATS unit, its because you could not make the grade at NATS.)
However it is unrealistic to expect salaries to be decided primarily by the traffic a unit works.Otherwise a unit working 1000 a day on £60000 means a unit working a 100 a day are only going to get £6000 (taking it to the extreme i know) and that would mean HIAL would not get anybody. So in reality a lot of units have to offer salaries not too far behind the big airports in order to attract people and keep staff , regardless of the amount of traffic worked , but that is market forces. When people make a choice to work at unit it is not just down to money. Quality of life , family connections and general lifestyle choice etc. come into it. (contary to the old belief by some ,that if you work at non NATS unit, its because you could not make the grade at NATS.)