Radar contact and Identified
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: EU
Radar contact and Identified
Hello guys and girls,
what's the difference between those two,can you give examples of situations,whether to use one or another, doc.4444 definitions doesn't give much
Cheers,Ron.
what's the difference between those two,can you give examples of situations,whether to use one or another, doc.4444 definitions doesn't give much
Cheers,Ron.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: EU
so for example: G-XXXX departs, calls on frequency, I can see him, I reply: XXX Approach, radar contact.
But if the same acft,which I have details,departs,but let's imagine transponder was off, SSR only, I can't see him ,he calls, I reply: XXX approach, Identified.
Is that what you mean?
Ron.
But if the same acft,which I have details,departs,but let's imagine transponder was off, SSR only, I can't see him ,he calls, I reply: XXX approach, Identified.
Is that what you mean?
Ron.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: LHR/Surrey
In UK, MATS Pt 1:
Radar Contact - The situation which exists when the radar position of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display. (ICAO)
Identification - The situation which exists when the position indication of a particular aircraft is seen on a situation display and positively identified. (ICAO)
Radar Contact - The situation which exists when the radar position of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display. (ICAO)
Identification - The situation which exists when the position indication of a particular aircraft is seen on a situation display and positively identified. (ICAO)
I go for the same.I can`t see the difference.radar contact=identified.
NOW I HAVE DOUBTS
Joined: May 2004
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From: England
Surely it depends on the context in which it/they are being used.
Identified is usually only mentioned ATC to ATC during a radar handover or ATC to AC when the ac is positively identifed by the controller using the proscribed identification techniques/methods.
Contact would be used when an ac had undergone a radar handover and the ac would be told to "Contact xxx radar 111.11" or when one ATC to another is referring to an ac and points said ac out using radar. As soon as the listening controller is happy he he has identified the subject ac he replies "contact" so both parties know the which ac they are referring.
Just read that through so not convinced it's that clear but I've never professed to be any good at this lark!
Identified is usually only mentioned ATC to ATC during a radar handover or ATC to AC when the ac is positively identifed by the controller using the proscribed identification techniques/methods.
Contact would be used when an ac had undergone a radar handover and the ac would be told to "Contact xxx radar 111.11" or when one ATC to another is referring to an ac and points said ac out using radar. As soon as the listening controller is happy he he has identified the subject ac he replies "contact" so both parties know the which ac they are referring.
Just read that through so not convinced it's that clear but I've never professed to be any good at this lark!
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: on base
Picking up on the use of contact in RT,, i.e "callsign contact xxx on xxx.xxx"
contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.
In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.
contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.
In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.
Last edited by glider insider; 1st November 2008 at 22:47. Reason: did not like the use of the word positively!
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From: Somewhere on a RWY
The First ATCU that gets an aircraft on radar
(eg. TWR upon departure) will identify the flight (eg 1NM from RWY, passing 2400 ft) So that controller will use
KLM123 identified (upon departure)...
The next controllers who will use the same radar system will usually say KLM123 radar contact...< instruction> ...
If the radar contact is lost...
KLM123 for radar identification, squawk ident...
KLM123 identified...
Thats the info we received in our ANSP...
Grtz
B
(eg. TWR upon departure) will identify the flight (eg 1NM from RWY, passing 2400 ft) So that controller will use
KLM123 identified (upon departure)...
The next controllers who will use the same radar system will usually say KLM123 radar contact...< instruction> ...
If the radar contact is lost...
KLM123 for radar identification, squawk ident...
KLM123 identified...
Thats the info we received in our ANSP...
Grtz
B
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From: Lots of Sand
Contact vs Identified
Wow, what a buffet of answers to a simple question, and I am sure this was covered about 5 months ago.
Radar Contact means a target / PPS / RPS whatever is observed on a radar screen. That is all, it is just an RPS or blip buzzing around.
Identifed means that thru the approved procedures of SSR / PSR identification, that target has now been correlated to a known A/C and is now "Identified".
There is no such thing as "Positively Identified", a target is either Identifed or not.
Once an A/c is "Identified" it shall automatically receive radar service until it is told "Radar services terminated", procedural control then ensues and the A/C will resume normal position reports etc.
Picking up on the use of contact in RT,, i.e "callsign contact xxx on xxx.xxx"
contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.
In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.
Couldn't disagree with you more on this one "glider insider", unless you do some special secret military stuff. "Contact" when used with a frequency change just means "Call" "Switch-to" "Talk to" etc, but has nothing to do with the state of A/C Identification or not.
Once an A/C is "Identified" it remains so forever, unless "Radar services terminated" is used. This also applies in automated RDPS's between sectors, the A/C is still identified when control is transfered from one controller to the next.
The second an A/C has been identified, that automatically and immediately implies a radar service is being provided until they are told otherwise.
Radar Contact means a target / PPS / RPS whatever is observed on a radar screen. That is all, it is just an RPS or blip buzzing around.
Identifed means that thru the approved procedures of SSR / PSR identification, that target has now been correlated to a known A/C and is now "Identified".
There is no such thing as "Positively Identified", a target is either Identifed or not.
Once an A/c is "Identified" it shall automatically receive radar service until it is told "Radar services terminated", procedural control then ensues and the A/C will resume normal position reports etc.
Picking up on the use of contact in RT,, i.e "callsign contact xxx on xxx.xxx"
contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.
In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.
Couldn't disagree with you more on this one "glider insider", unless you do some special secret military stuff. "Contact" when used with a frequency change just means "Call" "Switch-to" "Talk to" etc, but has nothing to do with the state of A/C Identification or not.
Once an A/C is "Identified" it remains so forever, unless "Radar services terminated" is used. This also applies in automated RDPS's between sectors, the A/C is still identified when control is transfered from one controller to the next.
The second an A/C has been identified, that automatically and immediately implies a radar service is being provided until they are told otherwise.
Guest
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The second an A/C has been identified, that automatically and immediately implies a radar service is being provided until they are told otherwise.
PS - I say 'doing their own thing' because in reality I'm not sure what service they are then receiving, a situation that will not be helped in the UK from March when just about anything can be called a FIS!
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From: Europe
According to ICAO Doc. 4444, both terms are acceptable: either "Radar Contact (position)" or "Identified (Position)" (see Doc. 4444, 12.4.1.1).
Further, it defines Radar Contact as "the situation which exists when the radar position of of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display".
It is also stated that that these phraseologies are to be used when surveillance is being used in the provision of Air Traffic Services, implying that that once an aircraft has been identified (and advised) it is then being provided with a radar service.
Tired now...
Imperator1300
Further, it defines Radar Contact as "the situation which exists when the radar position of of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display".
It is also stated that that these phraseologies are to be used when surveillance is being used in the provision of Air Traffic Services, implying that that once an aircraft has been identified (and advised) it is then being provided with a radar service.
Tired now...
Imperator1300
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: on base
The controlling I do is certainly not "secret military" stuff, but the meanings of the 3 phrases, "contact, continue with, freecall" are as taught to UK mil controllers and are certainly applicable in UK ATSOCAS as provided by a military controller (such as when controlling LARS).
I disagree that Identification implies a radar service is being applied. I can think of an example when you are controlling a FIS and you require coordination with that aircraft, you will identifiy that aircraft and seek agreement from the FIS pilot to a course of action. I have identified the aircraft so that I know I am coordinating the correct return on the screen, but I am still only providing that aircraft with a FIS. I cannot speak for controlling in CAS, but outside CAS a radar service is not applied until the controller / pilot agreement has been reached. That is the pilot requests the type of service and the controller confirms that service by stating it back, or the relevant next best service applicable (such as when the aircraft is beneath the RVC and cannot be provided with RAS, so a RIS is applied).
Interestingly the discussions we are having are one of the reasons that the new ATSOCAS is being introduced, so that a consistent level of service is being applied from unit to unit across both the military and civil arenas. Accordingly the military will be adopting many aspects of civil phraseology such as "immediately" when offering AA and "degrees" with headings ending with a zero.
I disagree that Identification implies a radar service is being applied. I can think of an example when you are controlling a FIS and you require coordination with that aircraft, you will identifiy that aircraft and seek agreement from the FIS pilot to a course of action. I have identified the aircraft so that I know I am coordinating the correct return on the screen, but I am still only providing that aircraft with a FIS. I cannot speak for controlling in CAS, but outside CAS a radar service is not applied until the controller / pilot agreement has been reached. That is the pilot requests the type of service and the controller confirms that service by stating it back, or the relevant next best service applicable (such as when the aircraft is beneath the RVC and cannot be provided with RAS, so a RIS is applied).
Interestingly the discussions we are having are one of the reasons that the new ATSOCAS is being introduced, so that a consistent level of service is being applied from unit to unit across both the military and civil arenas. Accordingly the military will be adopting many aspects of civil phraseology such as "immediately" when offering AA and "degrees" with headings ending with a zero.
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From: Greystation
The original poster is a SATCO according to profile so I would imagine that the question relates to ATC-ATC co-ordination and nothing to do with what is said to pilots over the RTF. Clarification would help but I think the 2nd post answers the question perfectly.
