NATS Banding
Join Date: Nov 2002
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This quote has been posted in the payrise debate but I feel it is relevant here.
"Must say that I agree completely with the above statement. It appears to me that those at the top of the food chain be it MP's or corporate heads still get cracking pay rises when those further down have to split whats left between them. Besides, why the hell are MP's so well off??? all they do is represent us (supposedly!), its not as if they do anything useful.."
Sounds like the payrise a Band 5 Atco receives compared to a Band1/2.
Unfortunately I believe that Banding does play a major part in the Pension debate.
Without nailing figures down a same % rise across the Bands could mean in monetary terms a huge rise at the top but a relatively poor one at the bottom. Maybe taking a Band 5 top of scale Atco into a six figure salary but oppositely a Band 1 Atco to just over 60 grand. The money divided around comes out of the same pot so again purely in monetary terms if the guys at the top get a large rise then there is little money left for the rest.
I must stress again that I do not believe we should all receive the same salaries but if this carries on in the next 10 years or so the guys at the top will be close to doubling the salaries of the bottom Band Atcos. Not really fair and also, as is true now, retiring on a pension that is worth more than a current Atco1/2's actual salary for continuing to risk their licence.
All we seek is a fairer playing field and a narrowing of this divisive Banding system.
"Must say that I agree completely with the above statement. It appears to me that those at the top of the food chain be it MP's or corporate heads still get cracking pay rises when those further down have to split whats left between them. Besides, why the hell are MP's so well off??? all they do is represent us (supposedly!), its not as if they do anything useful.."
Sounds like the payrise a Band 5 Atco receives compared to a Band1/2.
Unfortunately I believe that Banding does play a major part in the Pension debate.
Without nailing figures down a same % rise across the Bands could mean in monetary terms a huge rise at the top but a relatively poor one at the bottom. Maybe taking a Band 5 top of scale Atco into a six figure salary but oppositely a Band 1 Atco to just over 60 grand. The money divided around comes out of the same pot so again purely in monetary terms if the guys at the top get a large rise then there is little money left for the rest.
I must stress again that I do not believe we should all receive the same salaries but if this carries on in the next 10 years or so the guys at the top will be close to doubling the salaries of the bottom Band Atcos. Not really fair and also, as is true now, retiring on a pension that is worth more than a current Atco1/2's actual salary for continuing to risk their licence.
All we seek is a fairer playing field and a narrowing of this divisive Banding system.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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TAD, using the example of ATCOs leaving lower band units to go to the 'sandpit' as an illustration of the inequity of banding is spurious.
I would imagine my own unit has lost the most ATCOs, percentage wise, to the ME than any other NATS unit, in the past year.
I would imagine my own unit has lost the most ATCOs, percentage wise, to the ME than any other NATS unit, in the past year.
Last edited by Gonzo; 18th Sep 2008 at 21:25.
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Sorry position is that NSL just can't afford much higher salaries and also keep,what are in many cases, loss making contracts. It's a fact.
I guess the real supply v demand issue is at the major centres whether we like it or not.
A band 5 will only retire on more than a Band 1/2 provided that no lump sum is taken-unlikely I would suggest so a totally ingenuous comment.
I guess the real supply v demand issue is at the major centres whether we like it or not.
retiring on a pension that is worth more than a current Atco1/2's actual salary for continuing to risk their licence.
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Gonzo,
If people want to leave for any other unit,then that's great for them.I have worked abroad,and people ask me all the time.I always say go for it,because we will always be amongst the lowest paid in Nats.Doesn't matter how much the traffic increases,or extra work that we are required to do.
Staff must be leaving LL for a reason as well.Maybe they want to dust off their radar rating.It gets a bit boring saying cleared to land all the time.I did it for 3 years,and was eager to get back to radar.
If people want to leave for any other unit,then that's great for them.I have worked abroad,and people ask me all the time.I always say go for it,because we will always be amongst the lowest paid in Nats.Doesn't matter how much the traffic increases,or extra work that we are required to do.
Staff must be leaving LL for a reason as well.Maybe they want to dust off their radar rating.It gets a bit boring saying cleared to land all the time.I did it for 3 years,and was eager to get back to radar.
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Gonzo, (at the risk of thread creep) in the last five years or so, what age was the oldest posted-in from elsewhere ATCO to gain ULE's at Heathrow? Supplementary - what percentage of over 45's are successful?
Just asking out of interest
DD
Just asking out of interest
DD
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Gonzo,
A sad indictment of NATS indeed if people are leaving what must surely be a top posting in a "World Leader" in ATC. Is Heathrow not what every UK controller aspires to do?
A sad indictment of NATS indeed if people are leaving what must surely be a top posting in a "World Leader" in ATC. Is Heathrow not what every UK controller aspires to do?
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Oldest experienced ATCO to validate with no previous LL Tower experience in the last 5 years?....errr, early 40s (might be younger than that, bit vague on guessing age!
).
I don't know of any over 45s to validate without considerable previous LL Tower experience.
).I don't know of any over 45s to validate without considerable previous LL Tower experience.
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Really vesp?
One of the ex-LGW boys validated a few month's ago at NATS flagship airport, and another Gatwick Girlie is desperately tunneling her way towards us in the New Year.
I don't see many wanting to go the other way....
One of the ex-LGW boys validated a few month's ago at NATS flagship airport, and another Gatwick Girlie is desperately tunneling her way towards us in the New Year.
I don't see many wanting to go the other way....
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From 250 kts "A band 5 will only retire on more than a Band 1/2 provided that no lump sum is taken-unlikely I would suggest so a totally ingenuous comment. "
Actually i've just put a current top of scale Band5 atco's salary through the CAAPS website's benefit projector for my retirement. Comes out with a monthly salary close to my current salary PLUS a lump sum of over a quarter of a million! 250 kts check your facts first.
This will only get worse with a same percentage payrise.
Spunkfarter
You allowed back on Pprune now you've ditched the management bo**ocks?
Actually i've just put a current top of scale Band5 atco's salary through the CAAPS website's benefit projector for my retirement. Comes out with a monthly salary close to my current salary PLUS a lump sum of over a quarter of a million! 250 kts check your facts first.
This will only get worse with a same percentage payrise.
Spunkfarter
You allowed back on Pprune now you've ditched the management bo**ocks?
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Within the last 6 months an older (56) controller validated at Heathrow but had previous experience before the APC/TWR split. If you ask him though I am sure that he will tell you it was not a "walk in the park".
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I don't see many wanting to go the other way....
(before return flak, I'm also not suggesting that some folks really do aspire to go to LL for better reasons, I'm just saying that it's not what everyone wants to do.)
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"people saying they cant vget out of their unit doesnt really wash.
go to the college (band 5)
do a few years then pick your posting."
That sounds really easy.
However where are we getting the people from to release us to go to the college?
We have been waiting for a guy to come to us from Aberdeen for a good number of years now but his release date has gone back yet again because people are fed up and have left there to go to the sand pit. I'm surprised he still wants to come after being fannyed around so much, he may join us at some point next year but I wouldn't bet on it. And I know there are numerous other examples.
go to the college (band 5)
do a few years then pick your posting."
That sounds really easy.
However where are we getting the people from to release us to go to the college?
We have been waiting for a guy to come to us from Aberdeen for a good number of years now but his release date has gone back yet again because people are fed up and have left there to go to the sand pit. I'm surprised he still wants to come after being fannyed around so much, he may join us at some point next year but I wouldn't bet on it. And I know there are numerous other examples.
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Lookatthesky,
Can of worms indeed.It's the building the counts,not necessarily the job that is done.Good example Luton radar,Band 5 v Aberdeen Radar,Band 2.
Aberdeen is as busy,if not busier.It has more airspace,a much larger variety of traffic,work departures and work in Class G all the time.Now the Band 5 boys will leap up and down saying they have to do another sector.Well we have to do the Tower.Probably one of the more complex I can think of.
I would be interested if someone can explain the logic,because I've been waiting for an answer for 17 years.
Can of worms indeed.It's the building the counts,not necessarily the job that is done.Good example Luton radar,Band 5 v Aberdeen Radar,Band 2.
Aberdeen is as busy,if not busier.It has more airspace,a much larger variety of traffic,work departures and work in Class G all the time.Now the Band 5 boys will leap up and down saying they have to do another sector.Well we have to do the Tower.Probably one of the more complex I can think of.
I would be interested if someone can explain the logic,because I've been waiting for an answer for 17 years.
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Quote:
how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller?
Banding is not just about levels of traffic, it's also about complexity...
Don't you know how difficult it can be keeping abreast of current affairs through reading the Daily Star whilst on console, when a meddlesome aircraft calls you?
how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller?
Banding is not just about levels of traffic, it's also about complexity...
Don't you know how difficult it can be keeping abreast of current affairs through reading the Daily Star whilst on console, when a meddlesome aircraft calls you?
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Hootin an a roarin
Thanks for checking the CAAPS figures for me; is that one of the non-operational tasks given to you lower banded guys to 'beef-up' the workload in between inbounds?
A lump sum of over £250,000 you say? Great. Anyway, better dash, the fire's about to go out.
Thanks for checking the CAAPS figures for me; is that one of the non-operational tasks given to you lower banded guys to 'beef-up' the workload in between inbounds?
A lump sum of over £250,000 you say? Great. Anyway, better dash, the fire's about to go out.