"Break-Off" Approach
Or why not issue it all as one instruction? As a pilot, when I am told to go around, I assume there is a safety issue and immediately initiate action based on what is in the call, even before I acknowledge the instruction. While the phaseology might not resemble word for word what is in the book, would have an instruction "XYZ Go-Around, Immediate Right Turn Heading 180 Climb 3000ft" not been sufficient? Everything is then contained in a concise message. I would hope in a critical situation the pilot would begin go-around action before even thinking about reading back the instruction, even in busy airspace such as Heathrow. Once the aircraft is not heading towards the ground the call can be acknowledged, then the checklists can be done...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South East UK
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Info, from MATS part 1 since last year:
Instructions to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land
15.3.1 The final approach represents an increased period of flight deck workload. Unusual situations and emergencies during this period can be particularly demanding for the pilot. Therefore, with the exception of instructions to go-around, instructions shall not be issued to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land that would require it to deviate from its expected flight path unless exceptional and overriding safety considerations apply.
So who judges whether it is an exceptional and overriding safety consideration??
Instructions to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land
15.3.1 The final approach represents an increased period of flight deck workload. Unusual situations and emergencies during this period can be particularly demanding for the pilot. Therefore, with the exception of instructions to go-around, instructions shall not be issued to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land that would require it to deviate from its expected flight path unless exceptional and overriding safety considerations apply.
So who judges whether it is an exceptional and overriding safety consideration??
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Riverboat -
I'm surprised there's been no response to this - and baffled that a single helicopter is 'allowed' to create this level of disruption. 
If what has been said - that the Police can cause 3 aircraft to go around and Radar to break off approaches to another two aircraft, then things need to change. The Police seem to believe that they can disrupt anything they want at any time. Close motorways, effectively close LHR, (at least for a while) etc. Someone with guts needs to sit down with the Police and get the situation at Heathrow changed. If the Police behave arrogantly and refuse to change, then that person with guts should go higher. Causing go-arounds from 600 ft is absolutely stupid.
Thread Starter
Nearly had another one today. About 700' on 09L we were told to break-off and establish on 09R. Then we were told than 09R still had an aircraft on the threshold so we re-established on 09R. All good fun at the end of a 4 day early tour! 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: South Midlands
Age: 76
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking as a retired Heathrow ATCO I thought it was ridiculous at the time when Police routine operations were upgraded from Cat Z to CAT B a few years ago. This does put controllers in a very difficult situation but I think breaking off traffic established in the late stages of an approach is frankly wrong and potentially dangerous both from the aircraft's and the ATC situation point of view. If the Police helicopter is responding to a really urgent situation then he has the option to declare a Police Emergency and is automatically upgraded to Cat A. Everybody then knows where they stand and an airshow can be justified.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: southeast england
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Essentially the same notification is also in the LGW (10.5.4) section of the TC Pt 2 for P37, he's 'B' unless he specifically tells you otherwise. In fact the same notification is in all the approach sections of the Pt 2.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In my head
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not that it counts for much, but I don't like the sound of this event.
From what I have seen on tv, there is a lot about Police Helicopter operations in the UK that as a society we could do without entirely.
Much of what they do for the tv audience at least looks like a jolly with not a lot of accountability and a lot of unsurprisingly apprehended dimwit teenagers who are released to do it all over again next day. Unsurprise because if you throw that much resource at such a tiny part of society's crime problems then you'd look bloody daft if you failed.
There, I've said it, told you it wouldn't count for much!
From what I have seen on tv, there is a lot about Police Helicopter operations in the UK that as a society we could do without entirely.
Much of what they do for the tv audience at least looks like a jolly with not a lot of accountability and a lot of unsurprisingly apprehended dimwit teenagers who are released to do it all over again next day. Unsurprise because if you throw that much resource at such a tiny part of society's crime problems then you'd look bloody daft if you failed.
There, I've said it, told you it wouldn't count for much!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
vespasia, your ops may need to speak to our ops but as far as we're concerned they are Cat B unless they explicitly state otherwise.
HD, times change, we live in a slightly different world now.
s and t correct, it didn't.
HD, times change, we live in a slightly different world now.
s and t correct, it didn't.
Last edited by Roffa; 24th Apr 2008 at 21:55.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In my head
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah what do I know, eh Roffa?
But did you see the episode where the Police heli captain chased some kids on a motorbike, called up the local fuzz to say "Come Quick, they're hiding under a tree" and then got the same answer as I usually get when I call ours "Sorry too busy with other higher priority incidents" (high priority means someone has to bleed profusely in my neck of the woods or alternatively utter a racist comment within someone's earshot).
So said heli-captain (he was the one with a helmet that wouldn't fit in the first part of the same episode) then decides to land craftily downwind behind the next rise and deploy two of his observer/whatevers wearing full black flying suits and full face black helmets and darkened visors
Then he takes off and reconfirms that they are still under the same tree and the two robocops sneak up & nab the blighters
They are so shocked when the black leather gloves collar them that they offer no struggle - their subconscious tells them they must be in a dream or a movie, and indeed they are in the latter
Trouble is, two Robocops, two arrested teenagers, and a stolen motorbike just don't all fit in a Police Bolkow so Captain has run out of human resources and has to return to base, while the robocops do a bit of local liaison and ultimately find their way home by road sometime before their duty period ends ... good telly, but I ask you, ...
But did you see the episode where the Police heli captain chased some kids on a motorbike, called up the local fuzz to say "Come Quick, they're hiding under a tree" and then got the same answer as I usually get when I call ours "Sorry too busy with other higher priority incidents" (high priority means someone has to bleed profusely in my neck of the woods or alternatively utter a racist comment within someone's earshot).
So said heli-captain (he was the one with a helmet that wouldn't fit in the first part of the same episode) then decides to land craftily downwind behind the next rise and deploy two of his observer/whatevers wearing full black flying suits and full face black helmets and darkened visors
Then he takes off and reconfirms that they are still under the same tree and the two robocops sneak up & nab the blighters
They are so shocked when the black leather gloves collar them that they offer no struggle - their subconscious tells them they must be in a dream or a movie, and indeed they are in the latter
Trouble is, two Robocops, two arrested teenagers, and a stolen motorbike just don't all fit in a Police Bolkow so Captain has run out of human resources and has to return to base, while the robocops do a bit of local liaison and ultimately find their way home by road sometime before their duty period ends ... good telly, but I ask you, ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
errm, maybe a silly question but...
why not use reduced seperation in the vicinity?
"Can you see the police heli and mantain your own separation?"
"Affirm"
Sorted.
why not use reduced seperation in the vicinity?
"Can you see the police heli and mantain your own separation?"
"Affirm"
Sorted.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NZscion
Or why not issue it all as one instruction?
Because a while ago a student spun in, apparently because he was confused by his missed approach instructions and pulled the stick back but didn't put the power on.
We've been told to send you around so there's no ambiguity, then pass further instructions seperately, ideally once you have a positive rate of climb.
Or why not issue it all as one instruction?
Because a while ago a student spun in, apparently because he was confused by his missed approach instructions and pulled the stick back but didn't put the power on.
We've been told to send you around so there's no ambiguity, then pass further instructions seperately, ideally once you have a positive rate of climb.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the Dog and Duck
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Causing an ac to go-around at 600ft isn't ideal so why wasn't the decision made earlier? Did the police helicopter give late notice of his intentions? Is it a case of "comercial pressures" that LHR press-on until the last moment before sending traffic around? (not a dig, genuine curiosity!)
Category of flight is to allow aviation on high priority tasks to be able to execute those tasks. If an ac is involved in safety of life/security then surely he has to be given priority over aviation involved in commercial enterprise. That said, carte blanche issue of CAT B to police heli's has to be wrong. Traffic monitoring or routine security checks do not warrant category B status IMHO.
Category of flight is to allow aviation on high priority tasks to be able to execute those tasks. If an ac is involved in safety of life/security then surely he has to be given priority over aviation involved in commercial enterprise. That said, carte blanche issue of CAT B to police heli's has to be wrong. Traffic monitoring or routine security checks do not warrant category B status IMHO.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London FIR
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From my experience, working as both a radar and tower controller within the london area, I have found the Police Helis to be very very flexible in how they do business. They won't just get in the way because they can and they are more than aware of the outcome of their decisions, but at the end of the day if the aircraft is Cat B then everyone else gets out of his/her way. (and before anyone says it; unless you are Cat A etc...)
P251/252 will only be non standard if they are on an actual shout, so cut them some slack- you never know what they are responding to.
MM
P251/252 will only be non standard if they are on an actual shout, so cut them some slack- you never know what they are responding to.
MM
Thread Starter
Like almost every other thread on pprune this has gone off on a tangent! My initial point was that we were given a non-standard and incomplete instruction which we hadn't been expecting. We had no gripe with the police helicopter being given priority over us (it's not as though we're ever on time anyway!) we just wanted re-assurance that controllers should give heading and climb information if they don't want us to complete the standard missed approach.
Many thanks to all for their contribution. My colleague and I have both found the thread very informative.
HP
Many thanks to all for their contribution. My colleague and I have both found the thread very informative.
HP
