High court finds air traffic controllers guilty over JAL near miss accident
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Slo Moe
Read carefully please! A lot of very nice and very friendly people are trying to send you a polite message.
Your posts are too long. This site is not a vehicle for your global wisdom on ATC matters. You seem to be a well-meaning hyperactive double-glazing salesman who is trying to set up a Pprune ATC academy.
After a hard day at work Pprune helps us to unwind, and sometimes answer queries, and sometimes to be a little cheeky.
Loosen up a bit. I hope you find these comments helpful before you obliterate another thread. I mean you no disrespect.
Your posts are too long. This site is not a vehicle for your global wisdom on ATC matters. You seem to be a well-meaning hyperactive double-glazing salesman who is trying to set up a Pprune ATC academy.
After a hard day at work Pprune helps us to unwind, and sometimes answer queries, and sometimes to be a little cheeky.
Loosen up a bit. I hope you find these comments helpful before you obliterate another thread. I mean you no disrespect.
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Thank you very much for your kind words. I appreciate them.
And thank you for the advice. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Apologies for the length of some of the postings.
Not everybody has the same ideas about, let's say internet, as you do.
And it's OK. So it goes. This topic needed something to be done,
I think. Not everybody thinks like this. And it's OK. So it goes.
On the top left of this page there is <User CP> menu.
In there there is <buddy/ignore lists>.
The structure of this Pprune forum is very well thought.
But the topic in this thread is quite something else, I suppose.
And thank you for the advice. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Apologies for the length of some of the postings.
Not everybody has the same ideas about, let's say internet, as you do.
And it's OK. So it goes. This topic needed something to be done,
I think. Not everybody thinks like this. And it's OK. So it goes.
On the top left of this page there is <User CP> menu.
In there there is <buddy/ignore lists>.
The structure of this Pprune forum is very well thought.
But the topic in this thread is quite something else, I suppose.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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@ Slo Moe,
You are working for EUROCONTROL, Headquarter , Brussels, Belgium....
Because,
1. You have enough time to write a lot...
2. You are full of "empty " sentences ,like we will win,it is for better future,we must be united,...
3. You have internet
4. You are arguing with high level operational experts(me not included but HD and others)
5.You may learn a lot at those pages but you must listen(read) what operational people saying-not fighting and writing ,
do not consider may post offensive,I would like to help you. Pprune is OK but you must know how to use it. I made a lot of mistakes,in the past,but now after two years I realize right values of being pprune community member.
You are working for EUROCONTROL, Headquarter , Brussels, Belgium....
Because,
1. You have enough time to write a lot...
2. You are full of "empty " sentences ,like we will win,it is for better future,we must be united,...
3. You have internet
4. You are arguing with high level operational experts(me not included but HD and others)
5.You may learn a lot at those pages but you must listen(read) what operational people saying-not fighting and writing ,
do not consider may post offensive,I would like to help you. Pprune is OK but you must know how to use it. I made a lot of mistakes,in the past,but now after two years I realize right values of being pprune community member.
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Thank you Singapurcanac. And Welcome back from your well
deserved holidays!
I am not working for EC HQ.
Thank you for your encouragement.
That is well needed around the world.
Learning is easiest when mistakes are allowed:
<Off topic>
One kind of learning cycle: (Personal opinion).
1.Theory is learned (Sometimes this can be omitted).
2. Do the thing you are trying to learn in action.
3. Make a mistake (Allow it also!).
4. Learn from it.
5. Do it in action.
6. Do it correctly.
7. Be grateful of the lesson learned.
8. Jump to the earlier step that is needed to enhance learning.
Sometimes you can jump from
Step 1 to
Step 5
and so on.
<End Off topic>
deserved holidays!
I am not working for EC HQ.
Thank you for your encouragement.
That is well needed around the world.
Learning is easiest when mistakes are allowed:
<Off topic>
One kind of learning cycle: (Personal opinion).
1.Theory is learned (Sometimes this can be omitted).
2. Do the thing you are trying to learn in action.
3. Make a mistake (Allow it also!).
4. Learn from it.
5. Do it in action.
6. Do it correctly.
7. Be grateful of the lesson learned.
8. Jump to the earlier step that is needed to enhance learning.
Sometimes you can jump from
Step 1 to
Step 5
and so on.
<End Off topic>
Last edited by Slo Moe; 18th May 2008 at 13:44. Reason: a->A,!, step 8, Off topic, typeset, b->B,modus
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Where could we find the link to the article?
The link that started this thread seems to be not working.
It is really helpful, if you can help in finding a link to some article
that points to the news that started this thread.
It is really helpful, if you can help in finding a link to some article
that points to the news that started this thread.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 19th May 2008 at 05:42. Reason: modus
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Thanks Dave. Still could not find the news. I seem to need some practise
with the search function...
Wikipedia has this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Ja...d-air_incident
The incidents are usually a chain of events. One thing leads to another.
That leads to a third occurrence. Which leads to the major factors etc...
Let's cut the chains.
with the search function...
Wikipedia has this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Ja...d-air_incident
The incidents are usually a chain of events. One thing leads to another.
That leads to a third occurrence. Which leads to the major factors etc...
Let's cut the chains.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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SloMoe, frankly, I appreciate your contributions but PLEASE keep them a bit shorter! The way you are writing full length articles now, if I were a politician I'd consider employing you as my ghost writer 
: at the end of the story nobody can remember what you started with - which may be ideal if you're running for president, but not if you want to keep an on-line discussion going!
With regard to the original subject of this thread, the following should more or less cover the content of the original article:
: at the end of the story nobody can remember what you started with - which may be ideal if you're running for president, but not if you want to keep an on-line discussion going!With regard to the original subject of this thread, the following should more or less cover the content of the original article:
The Tokyo High Court has found two air traffic controllers guilty of professional negligence resulting in injury following a near miss between two Japan Airlines planes in 2001, overturning an earlier district ruling that had declared them not guilty.
The court sentenced Yasuko Momii, 39, to 18 months' imprisonment, suspended for three years, and Hideki Hachitani, 33, to one year imprisonment, also suspended for three years.
It was the first ruling in Japan holding air traffic controllers responsible for a near miss accident. Their lawyers plan to file an appeal against the ruling. In handing down the ruling on Friday, Presiding Judge Masaru Suda said, "Aviation accidents can end up as catastrophes, instantly claiming the lives of many passengers. To ensure safety, an extremely high standard of care is demanded from air traffic controllers."
The judge accepted a causal relationship between the mix-up in flight numbers and the near miss, saying that the accident would not have occurred had the defendants provided correct air traffic instructions.
Lawyers for the pair argued that it was impossible to foresee the accident, but the court rejected their claim.
The court sentenced Yasuko Momii, 39, to 18 months' imprisonment, suspended for three years, and Hideki Hachitani, 33, to one year imprisonment, also suspended for three years.
It was the first ruling in Japan holding air traffic controllers responsible for a near miss accident. Their lawyers plan to file an appeal against the ruling. In handing down the ruling on Friday, Presiding Judge Masaru Suda said, "Aviation accidents can end up as catastrophes, instantly claiming the lives of many passengers. To ensure safety, an extremely high standard of care is demanded from air traffic controllers."
The judge accepted a causal relationship between the mix-up in flight numbers and the near miss, saying that the accident would not have occurred had the defendants provided correct air traffic instructions.
Lawyers for the pair argued that it was impossible to foresee the accident, but the court rejected their claim.
Last edited by Moira; 20th May 2008 at 14:01.
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What I want to read is:
"All the accusations and sentences cleared and the two ATCOs
concerned walking happily and free to serve their society again."
Maybe I should do a 2 minute vid of the message...
"All the accusations and sentences cleared and the two ATCOs
concerned walking happily and free to serve their society again."
Maybe I should do a 2 minute vid of the message...
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An other press article about the High Court verdict:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
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Thank you Moira!
BTW. You are right about compressing the message.
I did not know when I started to write, where the thoughts
would lead to. I feel it is better to do something to help.
BTW. You are right about compressing the message.
I did not know when I started to write, where the thoughts
would lead to. I feel it is better to do something to help.
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The Japanese legal system sucks if they can do this to our bretheren so it would be VERY interesting to hear from some Japanese Controllers about their view on this. Any takers then guys?? Sayonara!
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You wouldn't see a word at those pages from Japanesse colleagues.
If they were enough strong court wouldn't prosecuted ATCOs at all.
They are not those type of persons. Japan is developed country but their work logic is too far away from modern Europe .
a friend of mine living and working there. You will be shocked if you hear some stories.
He works 11 days on/1 day off. If he has to work on his day off due any reason,than it looks like:
11 days on/1 day on/11days on/1 day off/ 11 days on...
annual leave is 14(fourteen) days. But he is not allowed to use in one part. Two or even three parts are more acceptable. He needs two days for trip (Japan to Europe and back) so guess how many days he could spend...
N.B. top avoid possible missunderstanding he is not working in ATC , but some kind of aviation operations.
If they were enough strong court wouldn't prosecuted ATCOs at all.
They are not those type of persons. Japan is developed country but their work logic is too far away from modern Europe .
a friend of mine living and working there. You will be shocked if you hear some stories.
He works 11 days on/1 day off. If he has to work on his day off due any reason,than it looks like:
11 days on/1 day on/11days on/1 day off/ 11 days on...
annual leave is 14(fourteen) days. But he is not allowed to use in one part. Two or even three parts are more acceptable. He needs two days for trip (Japan to Europe and back) so guess how many days he could spend...
N.B. top avoid possible missunderstanding he is not working in ATC , but some kind of aviation operations.
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Good point!
Thank you Singapurcanac.
Fatigue is an internationally widely recognized factor related to
aviation safety.
One of the points is, that ATC as a job differs significantly
from some other jobs. ATCOs and Pilots as well need to keep their
physical and mental balance at all times.
Fatigue is a factor.
I remember vaguely a list of the most stressfull jobs in the whole world:
1. Neurosurgeon
2. Mining expert
3. ATCO
etc...
Prolongued stress+fatigue together are not vitamine for anybody.
Fatigue is an internationally widely recognized factor related to
aviation safety.
One of the points is, that ATC as a job differs significantly
from some other jobs. ATCOs and Pilots as well need to keep their
physical and mental balance at all times.
Fatigue is a factor.
I remember vaguely a list of the most stressfull jobs in the whole world:
1. Neurosurgeon
2. Mining expert
3. ATCO
etc...
Prolongued stress+fatigue together are not vitamine for anybody.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 29th May 2008 at 09:09. Reason: an, [B]
