Firearm Certificates For Atcos?
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Transylvania. Where else?
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Firearm Certificates For Atcos?
Devon and Cornwall Police insist that ATCOs down here must be holders of a Firearms Certificate if they have access to a Signal Pistol for flares and bird scarers because that is the way they interpret the Firearms Act (bless them!)
Just out of interest, is this a pecularity in the Southwest or do other Police Authorities around the country do the same?
Just out of interest, is this a pecularity in the Southwest or do other Police Authorities around the country do the same?
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I work in Airfield Operations at Newcastle and we all must have a firearm's license to use / have access to firearm's (very pistol ect). I understand this is a requirement by Northumbria Police 
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
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Needed in Scotland also. I certainly had one when I was ATCO manager in the Western Isles. Essential when ordering ammunition etc. The pistols and munitions were checked regularly by the local police, especially the overnight and unmanned security arrangements.
My personal weapons and ammunition could also be included, however that was on a one-man station some years ago.
My personal weapons and ammunition could also be included, however that was on a one-man station some years ago.
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How extraordinary!! My wife and I used to hold Firearms Certificates for our target shooting rifles but I cannot see how this can possible relate to firing a Very pistol!! Unless things have changed, Fireams Certificates do not carry with them a requirement for the holder to have been trained to use the weapon so what is served by having ATCOs hold them?
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If a Very pistol is held by anyone it is subject to a firearm certifcate, some police forces took the veiw that one person on the staff should hold the certificate and other named staff could use the pistol within the airfield.
This was much in line with the regulations governing shooting clubs where new members could use guns (and be technicly in posesion of a firearm without a certificate) if under the supervision of a named club instructor.
I guess the requirment for each ATCO to hold a firearns certificate is all part of the "security gone mad" times that we live in.
This was much in line with the regulations governing shooting clubs where new members could use guns (and be technicly in posesion of a firearm without a certificate) if under the supervision of a named club instructor.
I guess the requirment for each ATCO to hold a firearns certificate is all part of the "security gone mad" times that we live in.
Technically Bren, a Very pistol is smooth bore and hence a shotgun, but short barrel shotguns (I think it's barrel less than 18") are not licenseable under the Firearms Act, and of course, you can't use one with a Shotgun Certificate, thus they're not licenseable in any category!!
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OK T... thanks for that..
I never got involved with such things in UK, but I did overseas. The watches had a challenge with each other to see how much of the airfield we could set on fire on quiet Sunday afternoons with a single cartridge! It provided exercise for the AFS too except one day they got fed up and refused to turn out... We didn't do it any more.
I never got involved with such things in UK, but I did overseas. The watches had a challenge with each other to see how much of the airfield we could set on fire on quiet Sunday afternoons with a single cartridge! It provided exercise for the AFS too except one day they got fed up and refused to turn out... We didn't do it any more.
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Northern Constabulary used to take the relaxed view that one FAC sufficed until about ten or twelve years ago. Then they became far stricter, partly as the result of the Dunblane shootings. Thereafter they tightened up on shotguns as well. Up here the ATCOs no longer get to play with verys and bird scarers, it's all done by the firemen. Many moons ago when I had the good fortune to work for a regime that was jointly run by both Britain and France; the pistols were supplied by one colonial power and the ammo by the other. Calibres of inch and a half and 38mm come to mind. Fortunately for our safety, the cartridges were marginally bigger than the pistol bore so we couldn't use them. This was far from the worst example of Gilbertian farce involved in the whole performance.
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I suspect that the police are partially correct with their interpretation but not with regard to signalling equipment
The definition of a "firearm" is contained in s 57 of the Firearms Act
57.
Interpretation.
— (1) In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—
(a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and
(b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c)any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon;
and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.
There was a case a few years ago in which it was held that a pistol flare fitted the definition of a firearm and therefore amounted to such under the relevant part of the Firearms Act. I think the case might have been called R v Singh
Note that section 13 of the firearms Act 1968 provides
13.
Equipment for ships and aircraft.
— (1) A person may, without holding a certificate,—
(a)
have in his possession a firearm or ammunition on board a ship, or a signalling apparatus or ammunition therefor on board an aircraft or at an aerodrome, as part of the equipment of the ship, aircraft or aerodrome;
(b)
remove a signalling apparatus or ammunition therefor, being part of the equipment of an aircraft, from one aircraft to another at an aerodrome, or from or to an aircraft at an aerodrome to or from a place appointed for the storage thereof in safe custody at that aerodrome, and keep any such apparatus or ammunition at such a place; and
(c)
if he has obtained from a constable a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form, remove a firearm from or to a ship, or a signalling apparatus from or to an aircraft or aerodrome, to or from such place and for such purpose as may be specified in the permit.
It follows that a certificate is not required for signalling equipment but would be required for bird scaring equipment assuming it fulfilled the definition contained in s 57.
Chevvron
The definition of firearm makes no reference to rifling therefore a smooth bore does not automatically make a gun a shotgun
section 1 (3) (a) of the Act defines a shotgun:
a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—
(i) has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;
(ii) either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and
(iii) is not a revolver gun
The definition of a "firearm" is contained in s 57 of the Firearms Act
57.
Interpretation.
— (1) In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—
(a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and
(b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c)any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon;
and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.
There was a case a few years ago in which it was held that a pistol flare fitted the definition of a firearm and therefore amounted to such under the relevant part of the Firearms Act. I think the case might have been called R v Singh
Note that section 13 of the firearms Act 1968 provides
13.
Equipment for ships and aircraft.
— (1) A person may, without holding a certificate,—
(a)
have in his possession a firearm or ammunition on board a ship, or a signalling apparatus or ammunition therefor on board an aircraft or at an aerodrome, as part of the equipment of the ship, aircraft or aerodrome;
(b)
remove a signalling apparatus or ammunition therefor, being part of the equipment of an aircraft, from one aircraft to another at an aerodrome, or from or to an aircraft at an aerodrome to or from a place appointed for the storage thereof in safe custody at that aerodrome, and keep any such apparatus or ammunition at such a place; and
(c)
if he has obtained from a constable a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form, remove a firearm from or to a ship, or a signalling apparatus from or to an aircraft or aerodrome, to or from such place and for such purpose as may be specified in the permit.
It follows that a certificate is not required for signalling equipment but would be required for bird scaring equipment assuming it fulfilled the definition contained in s 57.
Chevvron
The definition of firearm makes no reference to rifling therefore a smooth bore does not automatically make a gun a shotgun
section 1 (3) (a) of the Act defines a shotgun:
a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—
(i) has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;
(ii) either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and
(iii) is not a revolver gun
StandupfortheUlstermen
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I hold one for my two O/Us, but at work they don't let the ATCOs play with the guns. It's not fair!
Mind you we had a deer on the airfield a couple of years ago and I was dancing round the VCR shouting 'shoot the f**king thing'. But no, ASU and the RFFS eejits chased it round the place instead, surprised it didn't die of exhaustion!. Like Keystone Cops it were.
Mind you we had a deer on the airfield a couple of years ago and I was dancing round the VCR shouting 'shoot the f**king thing'. But no, ASU and the RFFS eejits chased it round the place instead, surprised it didn't die of exhaustion!. Like Keystone Cops it were.
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They changed from the single licence to individual licences a about 3 years ago. We all hold individual certificates.
The certificate granted for the purpose of section 1(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 to the holder and relates to the firearms and ammunition specified..The Pistol is held by a named Certificate holder and the individual certificate allows you to borrow said pistol from time to time. The certificate also licences and restricts the amount of ammunition you may hold at any one time.
So it does not enable you to buy or use a shotgun or other firearm away from your place of work. You would have to ask for a variation to enable this.
The certificate granted for the purpose of section 1(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 to the holder and relates to the firearms and ammunition specified..The Pistol is held by a named Certificate holder and the individual certificate allows you to borrow said pistol from time to time. The certificate also licences and restricts the amount of ammunition you may hold at any one time.
So it does not enable you to buy or use a shotgun or other firearm away from your place of work. You would have to ask for a variation to enable this.
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I was told that the very pistol was classed as a class 1 firearm because when you use the birdscarer insert, it's possible that a shotgun cartridge can be fired from the weapon....No idea if that is true.
Below is an excerpt from Chapter 6 of The Home Office Firearms Guidance Document:
The Guidance is not the easiest document to read but it is several degrees of magnitude better than the Firearms Act which is abyssmal!
YS
Signalling apparatus on aircraft or
at aerodromes
6.42 Section 13(1)(a) of the 1968 Act also
applies to the possession of signalling
apparatus (for example, Very pistols) and
ammunition for it (but not to other types of
firearms and ammunition) which are required
as part of the equipment of an aircraft or an
aerodrome. Section 13(1)(b) of the 1968 Act
provides for such apparatus and ammunition,
which are part of the equipment of aircraft,
to be stored in safe custody at an aerodrome
and to be removed between the place of
storage and the aircraft, or from one aircraft
to another at an aerodrome, without the
necessity for a certificate or permit.
6.43 A permit on form 115 may be issued
under section 13(1)(c) of the 1968 Act to
cover any other case of removal of
signalling apparatus.
6.44 A firearm certificate is necessary to
authorise the purchase or acquisition of
signalling apparatus and ammunition therefor
but this may be issued free of charge
(see also Chapter 20 on fees).
Birdscaring
6.45 In the main there are two types of
firearm used for birdscaring, a necessary
safety measure at airfields: a firearm
designed as signalling apparatus and
modified accordingly (for example, a
modified Very pistol) or a firearm purposebuilt
for birdscaring, almost without
exception 12 bore. Where the firearm was
designed as signalling apparatus, it would not
be prohibited under section 5(1)(aba) of the
1968 Act even though it was now being used
for birdscaring. Persons wishing to purchase
or acquire such firearms can also benefit
from the provisions in section 32(3)(b) of
the 1968 Act in that no fee is payable where
the certificate relates solely to signalling
apparatus which the applicant requires as part
of the equipment of the aerodrome. The
certificate should, however, be conditioned
to the effect that the firearm should be used
only for signalling purposes and birdscaring
(see Appendix 3).
6.46 It should be noted that most cartridges
used for these purposes contain a single
projectile and are therefore subject to section
1 of the 1968 Act. Also, firearms specifically
designed for birdscaring (not signalling) fall
under section 5(1)(aba) of the 1968 Act
(prohibited weapons) if they have a barrel
less than 30cm, or are less than 60cm in
overall length. Firearms specifically designed
for birdscaring, and used for that purpose
(rather than for signalling as part of the
equipment of an aircraft or aerodrome),
also attract a fee when held on certificate.
at aerodromes
6.42 Section 13(1)(a) of the 1968 Act also
applies to the possession of signalling
apparatus (for example, Very pistols) and
ammunition for it (but not to other types of
firearms and ammunition) which are required
as part of the equipment of an aircraft or an
aerodrome. Section 13(1)(b) of the 1968 Act
provides for such apparatus and ammunition,
which are part of the equipment of aircraft,
to be stored in safe custody at an aerodrome
and to be removed between the place of
storage and the aircraft, or from one aircraft
to another at an aerodrome, without the
necessity for a certificate or permit.
6.43 A permit on form 115 may be issued
under section 13(1)(c) of the 1968 Act to
cover any other case of removal of
signalling apparatus.
6.44 A firearm certificate is necessary to
authorise the purchase or acquisition of
signalling apparatus and ammunition therefor
but this may be issued free of charge
(see also Chapter 20 on fees).
Birdscaring
6.45 In the main there are two types of
firearm used for birdscaring, a necessary
safety measure at airfields: a firearm
designed as signalling apparatus and
modified accordingly (for example, a
modified Very pistol) or a firearm purposebuilt
for birdscaring, almost without
exception 12 bore. Where the firearm was
designed as signalling apparatus, it would not
be prohibited under section 5(1)(aba) of the
1968 Act even though it was now being used
for birdscaring. Persons wishing to purchase
or acquire such firearms can also benefit
from the provisions in section 32(3)(b) of
the 1968 Act in that no fee is payable where
the certificate relates solely to signalling
apparatus which the applicant requires as part
of the equipment of the aerodrome. The
certificate should, however, be conditioned
to the effect that the firearm should be used
only for signalling purposes and birdscaring
(see Appendix 3).
6.46 It should be noted that most cartridges
used for these purposes contain a single
projectile and are therefore subject to section
1 of the 1968 Act. Also, firearms specifically
designed for birdscaring (not signalling) fall
under section 5(1)(aba) of the 1968 Act
(prohibited weapons) if they have a barrel
less than 30cm, or are less than 60cm in
overall length. Firearms specifically designed
for birdscaring, and used for that purpose
(rather than for signalling as part of the
equipment of an aircraft or aerodrome),
also attract a fee when held on certificate.
YS
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With the insert fitted for a bird-scaring cartridge, it is possible to use a standard shot-gun round. I have seen it done and it is not recommended. As the cartridge was almost as long as the bore of the insert, the spread is as close to 180 degrees as you want to get.
Thread Starter
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I understand that it almost takes your hand off too, which I must confess I do want to try!
Thanks everybody for all the reasoned replies. It would appear that there are as many interpretations as there are people to interpret the bl00dy Firearms Act which is what I suspected! Still, at least we are not alone down here in the Wid West and if we have to have individual Firearms Certificates, I just hope Osama Bin Laden does as well!
Thanks everybody for all the reasoned replies. It would appear that there are as many interpretations as there are people to interpret the bl00dy Firearms Act which is what I suspected! Still, at least we are not alone down here in the Wid West and if we have to have individual Firearms Certificates, I just hope Osama Bin Laden does as well!
