An idea for trainee ATCOs
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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An idea for trainee ATCOs
I posted this in another thread and was encouraged to start a new thread instead.
Content of original post:
Just a wild and ridiculous thought regarding the possibility of simulating high stress situations for trainees. As some of you know there is a world-wide online network of people using flightsims, flying around in a virtual world that is also populated by folks acting as ATC. The major networks actually have rather high standards regarding the training and seriousity (sp?) of the participants. The software is also of surprisingly high standard and not far from what is actually used. There are frequently so-called Flyins organized for major areas such as London, LAX and so on that usually generate large amounts of traffic.
There are obvious reasons why official training never can, or will, make use of such an environment but trainees can perhaps be pointed in that direction in their spare time, as opposed to playing WoW all night long
FYI, one such network is called Vatsim, www.vatsim.net, there are others as well.
End of original post.
I was recently visiting the Stockholm ATCC and briefly mentioned that most of the features of the ATC control system are simulated as mentioned above. No one of the people I was chatting with had ever heard of such a thing and were surprised to hear about it. The same is true for the (not many) pilots I´ve had a chance to chat with during flights.
I would like to hear from you pros what your thoughts are in this matter. As I mentioned above, there are obvious issues that makes it hard to make official use of networks such as Vatsim but on the other hand we have an environment filled with a multitude of international "pilots" that often spend a lot of time flying online. I can think of scenarios where collaboration with the virtual ATCCs that organize flyins can perhaps be lucrative for both sides. I´m sure that pilots would be thrilled to speak to actual ATC (trainees) and I know that any trainee is likely to find handling multinational virtual pilots with varying skills more than a handful.
Anyone thinking that the virtual aviation world is just a bunch of kids playing around is dead wrong, and I´d encourage you to take a look at the websites of networks such as Vatsim or IVAO, the two biggest networks, to see the level of interest and seriousness that these guys and gals show towards both flying and controlling. Maybe some cooperation can be made that benefit both worlds?
www.vatsim.net
www.ivao.org
http://www.euroscope.hu/
Cheers!
Content of original post:
Just a wild and ridiculous thought regarding the possibility of simulating high stress situations for trainees. As some of you know there is a world-wide online network of people using flightsims, flying around in a virtual world that is also populated by folks acting as ATC. The major networks actually have rather high standards regarding the training and seriousity (sp?) of the participants. The software is also of surprisingly high standard and not far from what is actually used. There are frequently so-called Flyins organized for major areas such as London, LAX and so on that usually generate large amounts of traffic.
There are obvious reasons why official training never can, or will, make use of such an environment but trainees can perhaps be pointed in that direction in their spare time, as opposed to playing WoW all night long
FYI, one such network is called Vatsim, www.vatsim.net, there are others as well.
End of original post.
I was recently visiting the Stockholm ATCC and briefly mentioned that most of the features of the ATC control system are simulated as mentioned above. No one of the people I was chatting with had ever heard of such a thing and were surprised to hear about it. The same is true for the (not many) pilots I´ve had a chance to chat with during flights.
I would like to hear from you pros what your thoughts are in this matter. As I mentioned above, there are obvious issues that makes it hard to make official use of networks such as Vatsim but on the other hand we have an environment filled with a multitude of international "pilots" that often spend a lot of time flying online. I can think of scenarios where collaboration with the virtual ATCCs that organize flyins can perhaps be lucrative for both sides. I´m sure that pilots would be thrilled to speak to actual ATC (trainees) and I know that any trainee is likely to find handling multinational virtual pilots with varying skills more than a handful.
Anyone thinking that the virtual aviation world is just a bunch of kids playing around is dead wrong, and I´d encourage you to take a look at the websites of networks such as Vatsim or IVAO, the two biggest networks, to see the level of interest and seriousness that these guys and gals show towards both flying and controlling. Maybe some cooperation can be made that benefit both worlds?
www.vatsim.net
www.ivao.org
http://www.euroscope.hu/
Cheers!
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Hey Tordan,
I've always had a general interest in aviation and was surfin the net last year for any kind of ATC simulator and stumbled on VATSIM. It was because of VATSIM that I found out about AsA and realised (yes its a cliche) my boyhood dream could possibly be reality.
Since then I've managed to get visits in the Adelaide Tower/TCU (all of which were utter drool sessions!!). Sadly, I didn't do a Year 12 science nor have the money (or time for that matter) for a CPL/PPL so I'm stuck with finishing my degree (til the end of the next year) before I'm allowed to apply - which from what I've seen on here and from what I've heard from different controllers is just a little challenging.. you know not alot just a touch
)
Just on what you said about real life controlled, I also mentioned VATSIM and the general virtual community to both the tower and TCU controllers and none of them had heard of it.
For Australian controlling, most controllers (virtual) use a client called VRC which does an ok rendition of TAAATS. The real-life is, oh, soo much cooler but I guess realistically speaking, the VRC version isn't too bad. Training in the Australian division of VATSIM is quite rigorous, obviously nothing compared to AsA, but for just a hobby, they're quite serious about it.
I know you were lookin for comments from the real-life ATC (which I look forward to reading), but I thought I might just throw this in the salad bowl - food for thought as it were.
Cheers,
Chenky
I've always had a general interest in aviation and was surfin the net last year for any kind of ATC simulator and stumbled on VATSIM. It was because of VATSIM that I found out about AsA and realised (yes its a cliche) my boyhood dream could possibly be reality.
Since then I've managed to get visits in the Adelaide Tower/TCU (all of which were utter drool sessions!!). Sadly, I didn't do a Year 12 science nor have the money (or time for that matter) for a CPL/PPL so I'm stuck with finishing my degree (til the end of the next year) before I'm allowed to apply - which from what I've seen on here and from what I've heard from different controllers is just a little challenging.. you know not alot just a touch
)Just on what you said about real life controlled, I also mentioned VATSIM and the general virtual community to both the tower and TCU controllers and none of them had heard of it.
For Australian controlling, most controllers (virtual) use a client called VRC which does an ok rendition of TAAATS. The real-life is, oh, soo much cooler but I guess realistically speaking, the VRC version isn't too bad. Training in the Australian division of VATSIM is quite rigorous, obviously nothing compared to AsA, but for just a hobby, they're quite serious about it.
I know you were lookin for comments from the real-life ATC (which I look forward to reading), but I thought I might just throw this in the salad bowl - food for thought as it were.
Cheers,
Chenky
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I have a friend who used to fly long routes using vatsim. It was fantastic, very realistic. He flew a lot in real life as well so he knew what he was doing so did the controller. I recommend anyone who has a decent comp and a love of aviation whether work related or just a hobby to use Vatsim
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Having spent three weeks helping train Swedish and Norwegian student ATCOs at EPN in Malmo, I would say that the standard of the students there showed that Vatsim wouldn't have been of any use. In fact it may have been detrimental to their training.
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The thing with Vatsim is, and any virtual aviation community. It just can't replicate the real thing to the level of being used as a reliable training aid. Don't get me wrong I have been connected to Vatsim while I have done practice XC flights and it has helped me to pick up on things that I might have missed when doing it for real, to be honest thats more down to flight sim than Vatsim. If anyone is planning on using it as a aid for flying then be careful you don't get caught up in bad habits like I have.
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On a similar note. London Control is a very realistic simulation which might be useful to trainees too. It is written by a company who actually writes software for the real thing.
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Don't get me wrong, like I said it is no where near as realistic as the real thing and definitely should not be used for real life navigation or aviation.
The point I was making is that I have learnt alot of real-life procedures through VATSIM. Like, I didn't know an ERSA from a NOTAM before 6 months ago. It's helped. It hasn't replaced the real thing though.
The point I was making is that I have learnt alot of real-life procedures through VATSIM. Like, I didn't know an ERSA from a NOTAM before 6 months ago. It's helped. It hasn't replaced the real thing though.
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I've been using VATSIM and before even SATCO and IVAO before I actually became a controller. I've stopped doing it from the controllers side when I started the training. It actually does more bad than good, you pick up wrong habits what you're not supposed to. It's not a coincidence that learning ATC is not a "learn it home and come back for the exam" style thing, but rather like continuous criticism of instructors for months, years.
As a controller (trainee or not) you expect the professional attitude from the pilots, and you don't expect to hear transmissions like "do you know where can I download this procedure from the net for my xyz airplane?". These things belong to the virtual world, but for an ATC trainee it's no use, believe me.
I don't know how are the other trainings, but believe me, no flyin can be more of a stress than well created, maybe not as busy but much more complex simulator exercise, at least the ones we've done during the training.
In most countries (with some exceptions, where you basically cannot be kicked out) the trainees are under tremendous pressure all during the selections and training.
I can only talk about Eurocontrol, where you can be dismissed at any stage of the training, including those months of simulator exercises as well, where every single exercise is evaluated to the smallest point like use of correct phraseology or the settings of your screen. It's not only about making sure they won't hit.
Besides - who would like to work even in his free time?
I agree with the people who are saying London Control is much more useful for trainees than VATSIM, though VATSIM can be great fun, no doubt there. As for the will to take the real world procedures, there are people who are open and people who are less in the Vatsim world. I've personally offered my help with the airspace I'm working in, but the answer was I should first validate in an other VACC and then try to help or do anything in Maastricht Airspace. Well, even if I love my job I'm not going to play around like that - I thought it's about reality, but if it's about something else (you name it), then it's fine for me, I can do the job everyday and love it
As a controller (trainee or not) you expect the professional attitude from the pilots, and you don't expect to hear transmissions like "do you know where can I download this procedure from the net for my xyz airplane?". These things belong to the virtual world, but for an ATC trainee it's no use, believe me.
I don't know how are the other trainings, but believe me, no flyin can be more of a stress than well created, maybe not as busy but much more complex simulator exercise, at least the ones we've done during the training.
In most countries (with some exceptions, where you basically cannot be kicked out) the trainees are under tremendous pressure all during the selections and training.
I can only talk about Eurocontrol, where you can be dismissed at any stage of the training, including those months of simulator exercises as well, where every single exercise is evaluated to the smallest point like use of correct phraseology or the settings of your screen. It's not only about making sure they won't hit.
Besides - who would like to work even in his free time?
I agree with the people who are saying London Control is much more useful for trainees than VATSIM, though VATSIM can be great fun, no doubt there. As for the will to take the real world procedures, there are people who are open and people who are less in the Vatsim world. I've personally offered my help with the airspace I'm working in, but the answer was I should first validate in an other VACC and then try to help or do anything in Maastricht Airspace. Well, even if I love my job I'm not going to play around like that - I thought it's about reality, but if it's about something else (you name it), then it's fine for me, I can do the job everyday and love it
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Good insight from Jagohu.
In order to be useful the "spare time simulators" need some development to be useful for the professional training. It is possible, but there is work to be done. At least the sims are a good way to get a glimpse of the real thing, possibly they show that you are interested in the profession. One small part of the selection processes is the initial motivation of the applicants.
One part of the ATC training is to learn the methodologies, attitudes and habits that support the work in high pressure situations. The work is bound by rules and the ATC:s have to do things by the book. Although the training can not cover all the possible variations and occurrences of the real world, the goal is to give the trainee the tools and knowledge and habits and attitudes and patterns of thought that are helpful in doing the daily work and "solving problems" real time. Under time pressure, while the traffic flows on.
If we think then about the pilot training, it is not long ago that some flag carriers, airlines, were very picky when chooosing their initial trainees. Do not get me wrong. The system that sifts through all the applicants is very thorough. And produces candidates who have the best possibilities to go through the learning intensive training and have the best initial abilities to do the work.
Some of the airlines even refused to choose trainees that had their PPL training done by somebody else than the airlines own training organizations. The logic was that the unwanted habits learned through "unauthorized (airline point of view)" training were hard to unlearn and could lead to some nasty or unwanted situations later on through the career. Was that really the case, is hard to tell.
As I have understood, this kind of thinking has been already dismissed in many companies. Also the facilities offering initial flight training have better abilities to teach correct procedures etc. So the quality level has been raised, so to say.Earlier the airlines had even more "company style and culture" than today, even in the cockpits. It was thought to give more safety in diverse situations. It seems that this has become more and more standardized through the years. For instance quite big an amount of the daily work of pilots is to follow the procedures every time methodically, training even consits of some "rote learning".
Learning is hard enough. Unlearning and learning new "better or more suitable" habits can be even harder. Not always, though.
In order to be useful the "spare time simulators" need some development to be useful for the professional training. It is possible, but there is work to be done. At least the sims are a good way to get a glimpse of the real thing, possibly they show that you are interested in the profession. One small part of the selection processes is the initial motivation of the applicants.
One part of the ATC training is to learn the methodologies, attitudes and habits that support the work in high pressure situations. The work is bound by rules and the ATC:s have to do things by the book. Although the training can not cover all the possible variations and occurrences of the real world, the goal is to give the trainee the tools and knowledge and habits and attitudes and patterns of thought that are helpful in doing the daily work and "solving problems" real time. Under time pressure, while the traffic flows on.
If we think then about the pilot training, it is not long ago that some flag carriers, airlines, were very picky when chooosing their initial trainees. Do not get me wrong. The system that sifts through all the applicants is very thorough. And produces candidates who have the best possibilities to go through the learning intensive training and have the best initial abilities to do the work.
Some of the airlines even refused to choose trainees that had their PPL training done by somebody else than the airlines own training organizations. The logic was that the unwanted habits learned through "unauthorized (airline point of view)" training were hard to unlearn and could lead to some nasty or unwanted situations later on through the career. Was that really the case, is hard to tell.
As I have understood, this kind of thinking has been already dismissed in many companies. Also the facilities offering initial flight training have better abilities to teach correct procedures etc. So the quality level has been raised, so to say.Earlier the airlines had even more "company style and culture" than today, even in the cockpits. It was thought to give more safety in diverse situations. It seems that this has become more and more standardized through the years. For instance quite big an amount of the daily work of pilots is to follow the procedures every time methodically, training even consits of some "rote learning".
Learning is hard enough. Unlearning and learning new "better or more suitable" habits can be even harder. Not always, though.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 13th Mar 2008 at 11:20. Reason: Clarifications
