Applicability of Speed Restrictions - Arrivals
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loubylou and clear4takeoff
Do you have any reference for what you say?
Here is what I found in American Professional Pilot magazine: "After the STAR has been issued and accepted, any subsequent ATC changes to charted altitudes or speed restrictions does not cancel the remaining altitude or speed restrictions shown on the charted STAR procedure. Airspeed and altitude adjustments are commonly used during STARs to achieve traffic sequencing and separation."
Any coments from USA ATCOs?
Do you have any reference for what you say?
Here is what I found in American Professional Pilot magazine: "After the STAR has been issued and accepted, any subsequent ATC changes to charted altitudes or speed restrictions does not cancel the remaining altitude or speed restrictions shown on the charted STAR procedure. Airspeed and altitude adjustments are commonly used during STARs to achieve traffic sequencing and separation."
Any coments from USA ATCOs?
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2.5 miles; that's not what he's saying. NB his point "unless otherwise specified".
The CSA you mention failed to comply with the speed you had given him, ie you "otherwise specified" an approach speed to him.
What I would like to see is a CAA reference for the comment made.
The CSA you mention failed to comply with the speed you had given him, ie you "otherwise specified" an approach speed to him.
What I would like to see is a CAA reference for the comment made.
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Kiltie
"As soon as you're cleared for the approach it cancell any previous speed restriction, unless otherwise specified."
Reading this again: If I clear the aircraft for the approach and do not specify a speed with that instruction, the implication is that the aircraft can fly its own speed!
I believe that where positive speed control is being applied, the last assigned speed is the one that should be flown "unless otherwise specified", anywhere outside 4DME. If, as is being suggested here, aircraft believe they can adopt there own speeds when cleared for the approach, it may explain why we have so many non compliance issues with our expectations. Is that the way pilots actually interpret "cleared for the approach"? This does raise another issue (no wish to hijack the thread), when a speed instruction is issued, what do flight crew consider to be an acceptable response time to act upon the instruction?
"As soon as you're cleared for the approach it cancell any previous speed restriction, unless otherwise specified."
Reading this again: If I clear the aircraft for the approach and do not specify a speed with that instruction, the implication is that the aircraft can fly its own speed!
I believe that where positive speed control is being applied, the last assigned speed is the one that should be flown "unless otherwise specified", anywhere outside 4DME. If, as is being suggested here, aircraft believe they can adopt there own speeds when cleared for the approach, it may explain why we have so many non compliance issues with our expectations. Is that the way pilots actually interpret "cleared for the approach"? This does raise another issue (no wish to hijack the thread), when a speed instruction is issued, what do flight crew consider to be an acceptable response time to act upon the instruction?
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2.5 miles
In the absence of any ATC speed control and any formal speed instruction printed on the arrival chart, I fly the speed I feel appropriate on the day. This may or may not fit in with other traffic so you guys need to tell us. (To digress, all too often high performance turboprops are shoved to the back of the queue and given a restrictive speed over 20nm out, when they are capable of maintaining 250kts until 10-12nm. Are all ATCOs aware just how early a 737 / A319 etc. needs to reduce to 210kts and below in comparison, not least the additional vortex gap they leave behind?)
My point is that, when I am so often given a speed of 210kts on arrival at the zone and receive no speed instruction thereafter, we cannot possibly maintain this until 4 DME. I see your point clearly but the fact remains many of you guys issue a speed when we are far out to suit your flow, and never get around to reducing us for the approach. It's around 8 DME we will reduce to circa 180kts if we haven't heard anything further from you. I certainly don't condone the ignorance by pilots of speed instructions when they go something along the lines of 250 / 210 / 180 / 160 to 4 DME. That's plain cheating and I share your annoyance.
To give you my take on your last question, although I have never seen official guidance, in practice if a slower speed is issued by ATC then I would configure the aircraft to start reducing immediately, with a view to being locked on the speed within 30secs, although this may take up to a minute on a medium jet.
In the absence of any ATC speed control and any formal speed instruction printed on the arrival chart, I fly the speed I feel appropriate on the day. This may or may not fit in with other traffic so you guys need to tell us. (To digress, all too often high performance turboprops are shoved to the back of the queue and given a restrictive speed over 20nm out, when they are capable of maintaining 250kts until 10-12nm. Are all ATCOs aware just how early a 737 / A319 etc. needs to reduce to 210kts and below in comparison, not least the additional vortex gap they leave behind?)
My point is that, when I am so often given a speed of 210kts on arrival at the zone and receive no speed instruction thereafter, we cannot possibly maintain this until 4 DME. I see your point clearly but the fact remains many of you guys issue a speed when we are far out to suit your flow, and never get around to reducing us for the approach. It's around 8 DME we will reduce to circa 180kts if we haven't heard anything further from you. I certainly don't condone the ignorance by pilots of speed instructions when they go something along the lines of 250 / 210 / 180 / 160 to 4 DME. That's plain cheating and I share your annoyance.
To give you my take on your last question, although I have never seen official guidance, in practice if a slower speed is issued by ATC then I would configure the aircraft to start reducing immediately, with a view to being locked on the speed within 30secs, although this may take up to a minute on a medium jet.
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"As soon as you are cleared for the intrument app. it cancels any previous restriction unless otherwise specified"
You can find this quote in the FAAO 7110.65, i'm not sure if this rule is applied per the icao regulations since well i can't find a suitable copy to read without paying for it.
But overall this is how it works here in the US. At a busy terminal, We often will use the downwind to reduce guys to 4000 and 210kts. Once they hit base we will take them to 180kts. Following the app clearance the ATCO will instruct the aircraft to maintain a certain speed in between 160 to 180kts until the FAF, OM, or a point at about a 5 mile final. After the 5 mile point the pilot is in commend of the required speed for touchdown. To do so we take in to consideration the compression effect. A 747,767 or even 757 will run down to about 110 to 130kts short final therefore to maintain a wake turbulence separation you must plan accordingly with the next aircraft. Give a little more room. An Airbus will slow more then a boeing most of the time in my experience.
But a good hint, or this is how i think the faster i get my final so if i can keep the final at about 180kts.......well the closer my final will be to the airport.....i don't want a final passed 20nm cuz that means more work for me. And well the faster the final the quicker i get the A/C to the tower so less R/T issues.
But well i hope this helps out the questions a little.
Take care people.
You can find this quote in the FAAO 7110.65, i'm not sure if this rule is applied per the icao regulations since well i can't find a suitable copy to read without paying for it.
But overall this is how it works here in the US. At a busy terminal, We often will use the downwind to reduce guys to 4000 and 210kts. Once they hit base we will take them to 180kts. Following the app clearance the ATCO will instruct the aircraft to maintain a certain speed in between 160 to 180kts until the FAF, OM, or a point at about a 5 mile final. After the 5 mile point the pilot is in commend of the required speed for touchdown. To do so we take in to consideration the compression effect. A 747,767 or even 757 will run down to about 110 to 130kts short final therefore to maintain a wake turbulence separation you must plan accordingly with the next aircraft. Give a little more room. An Airbus will slow more then a boeing most of the time in my experience.
But a good hint, or this is how i think the faster i get my final so if i can keep the final at about 180kts.......well the closer my final will be to the airport.....i don't want a final passed 20nm cuz that means more work for me. And well the faster the final the quicker i get the A/C to the tower so less R/T issues.
But well i hope this helps out the questions a little.
Take care people.
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UK AIP London Heathrow Aerodrome section EGLL 1-18
"Speed Control: Pilots should typically expect the following speed restrictions to be enforced; 220kts from the holding facility during the initial approach phase; 180kts on base leg/closing headings to final approach; between 180kts and 160kts when established on final approach and thereafter 160kts to 4 DME. These speeds are applied for ATC separation purposes and are mandatory. In the event of a new (non speed related) ATC instruction being issued (eg an instruction to descend on ILS) pilots shall continue to maintain the previously allocated speed. All speeds should be flown as accurately as possible. Aircraft unable to conform to these speeds must inform ATC and state what speeds can be used. In the interests of accurate spacing, pilots are requested to comply with speed adjustments as promptly as is feasible within their own operational constraints. Pilots should advise ATC if circumstances necessitate a change of speed for aircraft performance reasons."
In high traffic density environment, where a high landing rate is necessary, such constraints are essential. This is particularly essential when we are applying 2.5mile separation, there is little or no room for error, hence the above. The caveat being, if you can't comply, let us know and we will compensate.
Hope that helps
"Speed Control: Pilots should typically expect the following speed restrictions to be enforced; 220kts from the holding facility during the initial approach phase; 180kts on base leg/closing headings to final approach; between 180kts and 160kts when established on final approach and thereafter 160kts to 4 DME. These speeds are applied for ATC separation purposes and are mandatory. In the event of a new (non speed related) ATC instruction being issued (eg an instruction to descend on ILS) pilots shall continue to maintain the previously allocated speed. All speeds should be flown as accurately as possible. Aircraft unable to conform to these speeds must inform ATC and state what speeds can be used. In the interests of accurate spacing, pilots are requested to comply with speed adjustments as promptly as is feasible within their own operational constraints. Pilots should advise ATC if circumstances necessitate a change of speed for aircraft performance reasons."
In high traffic density environment, where a high landing rate is necessary, such constraints are essential. This is particularly essential when we are applying 2.5mile separation, there is little or no room for error, hence the above. The caveat being, if you can't comply, let us know and we will compensate.
Hope that helps
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Our JO 7110.65S says it this way in Chapter 5, "Radar," Section 7, "Speed Adjustment," Paragraph 5-7-1, "Application:"
[Snip]
b. Do not assign speed adjustment to aircraft:
[Snip]
b. Do not assign speed adjustment to aircraft:
1. At or above FL 390 without pilot consent.
2. Executing a published high altitude instrument approach procedure.
3. In a holding pattern.
4. Inside the final approach fix on final or a point 5 miles from the runway, whichever is closer to the runway.
c. At the time approach clearance is issued, previously issued speed adjustments shall be restated if required.
d. Approach clearances cancel any previously assigned speed adjustment. Pilots are expected to make their own speed adjustments to complete the approach unless the adjustments are restated.
[Snip]
Of course, I prefer "two-ten to the marker, faster if you like."
Dave
Last edited by av8boy; 19th Mar 2008 at 05:30.
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Thanks 2.5 miles, but that's a local arrangement particular to Heathrow, and is similar to that we see printed at other airports of significant traffic levels. However, many other places have no such printed speed requirements and it's at these places that I tend to experience the problem of an initial ATC speed given but then never reduced thereafter, leaving the onus on the pilot to reduce at a sensible range....
It bemuses me why anyone would want to cheat at ATC dictated speeds; an extra 10 or 20 knots won't make a damned bit of difference to an arrival time. Perhaps it is a fixation by the pilot of trying to achieve the perfect pre-programmed VNAV CDA without budging the thrust levers out of idle. Anyway with the advent of Mode S can't you interrogate what IAS the pilot has, "spot the liars" and bring them to task?!
It bemuses me why anyone would want to cheat at ATC dictated speeds; an extra 10 or 20 knots won't make a damned bit of difference to an arrival time. Perhaps it is a fixation by the pilot of trying to achieve the perfect pre-programmed VNAV CDA without budging the thrust levers out of idle. Anyway with the advent of Mode S can't you interrogate what IAS the pilot has, "spot the liars" and bring them to task?!
