CYYZ SID's
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Toronto, Ont, Canada
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CYYZ SID's
All of the published SID's for CYYZ have an altitude restriction of 5,000 ASL for jet aircraft.
After takeoff, when checking in with departure, 99.99999% of the time, jets will be cleared to 7,000 ASL.
Why don't "they" change the SID's so that ATC could just acknowledge the check in to departure with "XXXX radar identifed" ?
I suppose that re-design / certification / printing of charts etc etc, might be one of the reasons for not changing the SID's, so then why wasn't 7,000 instituted as the altitude in the first place?
I suppose ?? there is a safety benefit to having an explicit altitude being transmitted / received, but then why have the SID's ...
Mike
After takeoff, when checking in with departure, 99.99999% of the time, jets will be cleared to 7,000 ASL.
Why don't "they" change the SID's so that ATC could just acknowledge the check in to departure with "XXXX radar identifed" ?
I suppose that re-design / certification / printing of charts etc etc, might be one of the reasons for not changing the SID's, so then why wasn't 7,000 instituted as the altitude in the first place?
I suppose ?? there is a safety benefit to having an explicit altitude being transmitted / received, but then why have the SID's ...
Mike
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5000 feet is a safe altitude to climb to that will keep you clear of arrivals in their early descent area. They can be descending to 6000ft either just east or west of the field depending on the configuration. Aircraft have been known to turn on course sometimes without being told on takeoff and if you are climing to 7000 ft then you are smack in the way of arrivals.
Also given the strong headwinds that YYZ gets at times some of the biz jets are level at seven shortly aftertakeoff, once more in arrival airspace.
It is useful for the departure controller to have some altitudes available from 5 throught to 7. If all all SIDs for the jets went to 7 we lose that tool. In situations with prop and jet turns we at least have 5,6 and 7000 feet available to us if we need it.
Low performance arrivals also come into YYZ at 6000ft ie the C208s. In worst case scenario...if there was a radio failure on departure....5000ft keeps you underneath these arrivals.
It may seem like 99% of the time that you are being given the climb instantly to 7000, but the 1% of the time you are not is the reason why they won't be changing the SID altitudes any time soon.
Also given the strong headwinds that YYZ gets at times some of the biz jets are level at seven shortly aftertakeoff, once more in arrival airspace.
It is useful for the departure controller to have some altitudes available from 5 throught to 7. If all all SIDs for the jets went to 7 we lose that tool. In situations with prop and jet turns we at least have 5,6 and 7000 feet available to us if we need it.
Low performance arrivals also come into YYZ at 6000ft ie the C208s. In worst case scenario...if there was a radio failure on departure....5000ft keeps you underneath these arrivals.
It may seem like 99% of the time that you are being given the climb instantly to 7000, but the 1% of the time you are not is the reason why they won't be changing the SID altitudes any time soon.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Toronto, Ont, Canada
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi M&C,
Given your bio :
Started controlling at Aberdeen,
If your're an arrival /departure controller, I think I know your voice There's only one "Aberdeenish" male accent that I regularly hear on the frequency, must be you
I've never spoken to you , it's not me that's getting the 7,000 climbs, not in the C172's I typically pilot.
As for the 5,000 thing, it seems to be used more when the weather is in (lowish ceilings) ???
Interesting about C208's / 6,000 .. didn't know that.
While I have your "ear", ... which controllers are physically in the tower buildings?
Also what is the reason for using combinations of 24x / (15 / 33) in beniqn winds ? Seems to happen on Sat nights, some early mornings. I assume for the 24 / 33 combination it's to save a long taxi for departing on 23 ?
Arrival on 15 to save long taxi to the terminals ?
One other q, how "busy" does it have to get before they decide to have more than one arrival controller? I suppose weather is also a big factor, and during the evening "pushes", it sounds like there are always at least 2 arriv-controllers. But I've sometime heard in the late afternoons, one arriv-controller controlling 6-10 planes, talking non-stop. I guess if the weather is ok, you probably (???) enjoy it when it's moderately busy ?
Mike
Given your bio :
Started controlling at Aberdeen,
If your're an arrival /departure controller, I think I know your voice There's only one "Aberdeenish" male accent that I regularly hear on the frequency, must be you
I've never spoken to you , it's not me that's getting the 7,000 climbs, not in the C172's I typically pilot.
As for the 5,000 thing, it seems to be used more when the weather is in (lowish ceilings) ???
Interesting about C208's / 6,000 .. didn't know that.
While I have your "ear", ... which controllers are physically in the tower buildings?
Also what is the reason for using combinations of 24x / (15 / 33) in beniqn winds ? Seems to happen on Sat nights, some early mornings. I assume for the 24 / 33 combination it's to save a long taxi for departing on 23 ?
Arrival on 15 to save long taxi to the terminals ?
One other q, how "busy" does it have to get before they decide to have more than one arrival controller? I suppose weather is also a big factor, and during the evening "pushes", it sounds like there are always at least 2 arriv-controllers. But I've sometime heard in the late afternoons, one arriv-controller controlling 6-10 planes, talking non-stop. I guess if the weather is ok, you probably (???) enjoy it when it's moderately busy ?
Mike
Last edited by mstram; 17th Feb 2008 at 23:09.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mstram
In answer to your questions
Accent...English/Scottish/Australian accent..male...that would be me. Long ago it was Aberdeenish..before my voice broke! The only other foreign accents in YYZ terminal would be German and British ...both female..so I should stand out!
Come to the centre to visit so you can see the arrival area and you'll see where the 5000ft area is...and the reasons why it is preferential.
Not sure what you mean by runway combinations? If you mean the configurations. We try to stay on the East west parralels as much as possible as that allows for the greater flow into YYZ. At peak rate we operate in the triple which means we use all 3 east west runways Land/depart one, land one minimum space, depart one.
The configurations will change based on weather, work on the airfield, work on the ILSs, snow clearing, flight checks and most importantly...noise. This is probably what you are asking ie landing 24R departing 33? There normally will be some factor involved as they reduce the arrival rate so are not expeditious.
Arriving on 15L early morning is nothing to do with a quicker taxi (ask Fedex!) but because it is one of the noise preferential arrival runways in the curfew hours...the order of preference being 05,15L then 06L. So arriving on 15L early mornings is cos the wind isn't prevalent to land on one of the 05/06 runways.
There are 4 arrival positions in YYZ. 3 arrival controllers and 1 ILS monitor position. I was taught during my training that anyone should be able to handle up to 10 arrival aircraft into Toronto without too much trouble. Once that number goes up or becomes a constant, then we will open up an Arrival 2 position. One controller for the south runway, one for the North runway. Traffic from the south and west goes to the south runway, traffic from the North and North east goes to the north....although to create a balanced loading or to give aircraft more expeditious ground taxis..this can and will change (especially in a triple operation where you favour the south arrival runway as you can run minimum spacing).
Arrival 3 is opened at peak rate (68+) and has two controllers working the south runway...one to sequence into the downwind, the second to turn onto the ILS.
ILS monitor is used in poor weather....and enables us to run the parralel approaches in non visual conditions.
It does depend on the time of day and amount of airplanes...obviously...on how many arrival positions are open. In the summer it is not uncommon for A2 to be open from 2pm right through till 10. Winter.....opened and closed hourly.
Sometimes it may sound like someone is busy...but some controllers talk more than others
PM if you'd like a centre visit...most of your questions are easily answered there.
In answer to your questions
Accent...English/Scottish/Australian accent..male...that would be me. Long ago it was Aberdeenish..before my voice broke! The only other foreign accents in YYZ terminal would be German and British ...both female..so I should stand out!
Come to the centre to visit so you can see the arrival area and you'll see where the 5000ft area is...and the reasons why it is preferential.
Not sure what you mean by runway combinations? If you mean the configurations. We try to stay on the East west parralels as much as possible as that allows for the greater flow into YYZ. At peak rate we operate in the triple which means we use all 3 east west runways Land/depart one, land one minimum space, depart one.
The configurations will change based on weather, work on the airfield, work on the ILSs, snow clearing, flight checks and most importantly...noise. This is probably what you are asking ie landing 24R departing 33? There normally will be some factor involved as they reduce the arrival rate so are not expeditious.
Arriving on 15L early morning is nothing to do with a quicker taxi (ask Fedex!) but because it is one of the noise preferential arrival runways in the curfew hours...the order of preference being 05,15L then 06L. So arriving on 15L early mornings is cos the wind isn't prevalent to land on one of the 05/06 runways.
There are 4 arrival positions in YYZ. 3 arrival controllers and 1 ILS monitor position. I was taught during my training that anyone should be able to handle up to 10 arrival aircraft into Toronto without too much trouble. Once that number goes up or becomes a constant, then we will open up an Arrival 2 position. One controller for the south runway, one for the North runway. Traffic from the south and west goes to the south runway, traffic from the North and North east goes to the north....although to create a balanced loading or to give aircraft more expeditious ground taxis..this can and will change (especially in a triple operation where you favour the south arrival runway as you can run minimum spacing).
Arrival 3 is opened at peak rate (68+) and has two controllers working the south runway...one to sequence into the downwind, the second to turn onto the ILS.
ILS monitor is used in poor weather....and enables us to run the parralel approaches in non visual conditions.
It does depend on the time of day and amount of airplanes...obviously...on how many arrival positions are open. In the summer it is not uncommon for A2 to be open from 2pm right through till 10. Winter.....opened and closed hourly.
Sometimes it may sound like someone is busy...but some controllers talk more than others
PM if you'd like a centre visit...most of your questions are easily answered there.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Toronto, Ont, Canada
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi M.A.C.,
Another "oddity" I hear quite often, is a directive from the tower controller to "after take-off, maintain 3,000 only" (for jets). What is the reasoning? It seems to happen even in "good weather", even if (its sounds like) it isn't busy. Seems to happen during the day.
Mike
Another "oddity" I hear quite often, is a directive from the tower controller to "after take-off, maintain 3,000 only" (for jets). What is the reasoning? It seems to happen even in "good weather", even if (its sounds like) it isn't busy. Seems to happen during the day.
Mike
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto
Age: 57
Posts: 531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3000 for jets is issued when:
a) The jet will be given a turn instead of the SID;
b) It is departing from the "non-conforming runway" i.e. it will turn towards the other departure runway;
c) It is departing at the same time as another aircraft is doing b)
d) It might be less than 3 miles in trail of the previous jet departure which will provide another form of separation.
HTH
DC
British accent in the tower
a) The jet will be given a turn instead of the SID;
b) It is departing from the "non-conforming runway" i.e. it will turn towards the other departure runway;
c) It is departing at the same time as another aircraft is doing b)
d) It might be less than 3 miles in trail of the previous jet departure which will provide another form of separation.
HTH
DC
British accent in the tower
