LHR Third Runway
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LHR Third Runway
What London suburbs (currently devoid of commercial jet traffic flying below say 2000ft) will experience overflying aircraft on take off or landing due to proposed third runway?
Mickjoebill
Mickjoebill
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Thread Starter
Existing holding points?
Bath road being mentioned... is that enough detail?
Undaunted, here is a followup; would an additional landing runway (assuming it is parellal to existing) necessarily involve a new dedicated area for holding or would existing holding or stacking points be used?
Mickjoebill
Undaunted, here is a followup; would an additional landing runway (assuming it is parellal to existing) necessarily involve a new dedicated area for holding or would existing holding or stacking points be used?
Mickjoebill
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The position of the new runway is already in the public domain. The communities 1.1nm to the north of the existing centrline will be directly overflown. Arrivals will all be positioned from the north side from a circuit "inside" and below that for the current arrival stream. Some crossing through the Heathrow overhead from the south will occur.
There is no room for new Holds for the new runway and the experience at Stansted/Luton has taught us that you cannot service 2 runways with different flow rates from the same stack. This means that R3 traffic must be flowed and metred en-route so that bunching is eliminated. The fall back is that if bunching occurs, traffic for R3 will be packed to remove the surge. Normally it will operate mixed-mode.
Unless the regulator changes its position on new ATC separations standards it is difficult to see how alternation on the existing main runways can be maintained due to ICAO requirements for missed approach off the Centre runway.
Traffic will be vertically separated until established on final using ICAO SOIR standards (SOIR = ICAO Doc 9643). The plan is to join long so that CDA can still be achieved meaning that the base legs will be out at about 25 nm for the main runway and about 22nm for the new runway.
Terminal 6 will be just west of the village of Sipson and be only slightly smaller than T5.
.4
There is no room for new Holds for the new runway and the experience at Stansted/Luton has taught us that you cannot service 2 runways with different flow rates from the same stack. This means that R3 traffic must be flowed and metred en-route so that bunching is eliminated. The fall back is that if bunching occurs, traffic for R3 will be packed to remove the surge. Normally it will operate mixed-mode.
Unless the regulator changes its position on new ATC separations standards it is difficult to see how alternation on the existing main runways can be maintained due to ICAO requirements for missed approach off the Centre runway.
Traffic will be vertically separated until established on final using ICAO SOIR standards (SOIR = ICAO Doc 9643). The plan is to join long so that CDA can still be achieved meaning that the base legs will be out at about 25 nm for the main runway and about 22nm for the new runway.
Terminal 6 will be just west of the village of Sipson and be only slightly smaller than T5.
.4
Last edited by 120.4; 22nd Nov 2007 at 18:35.
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No, but the operation of Heathrow 3 and Northolt would become fully dependant. That is to say that a gap would have to be put in both the departure and arrival streams to Heathrow 3 in order to operate a Northolt. (Arrival too because of the risk of LL go-around).
All the Heathrow 3 departures must turn north immediately after departure because of the main runway operations. This means that they all turn straight across the Northolt climb-out and missed approach.
They must also be high performance climb (I forget the exact figure) to get above the other departures, and can then split off onto desired track. This means that the BNN hold has to move (In fact they all do i order to facilitate the Intermediate Approach onto long finals.) As a rough example, traffic off the new 27R going out through Hurn would climb quickly towards BNN, getting above the 27C BPK departure and then turn west & south along the Stansted CPT track down towards SAM.
.4
All the Heathrow 3 departures must turn north immediately after departure because of the main runway operations. This means that they all turn straight across the Northolt climb-out and missed approach.
They must also be high performance climb (I forget the exact figure) to get above the other departures, and can then split off onto desired track. This means that the BNN hold has to move (In fact they all do i order to facilitate the Intermediate Approach onto long finals.) As a rough example, traffic off the new 27R going out through Hurn would climb quickly towards BNN, getting above the 27C BPK departure and then turn west & south along the Stansted CPT track down towards SAM.
.4
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Good question.
There are several options...
Firstly (most costly) NHT is re-alligned to 09/27. That would leave the 25 threshold in its current place, and possibly allow an extension to be built (as now further away from the A40. Seperation from LHR 09 arrivals maintained, but arrivals on NHT 27 would seriously conflict with LCY outbounds from 28.
Secondly. LHR Dir takes all sequencing tasks for NHT and hands over to NHT TWR or GCA when seperated. NHT then has no requirement for Radar, thus MoD save a small fortune on the upkeep of its Watchman and SSR link (Debden/LHR)
Thirdly. Flying ops cease from one of the longest operational airfields in UK history. stn based a/c move to other locations and the helis 'detach' to Battersea when required.
I would like to see a re-alignment, but who knows... the MoD will probably close the runway and consign yet another piece of this countrys history to the books.
There are several options...
Firstly (most costly) NHT is re-alligned to 09/27. That would leave the 25 threshold in its current place, and possibly allow an extension to be built (as now further away from the A40. Seperation from LHR 09 arrivals maintained, but arrivals on NHT 27 would seriously conflict with LCY outbounds from 28.
Secondly. LHR Dir takes all sequencing tasks for NHT and hands over to NHT TWR or GCA when seperated. NHT then has no requirement for Radar, thus MoD save a small fortune on the upkeep of its Watchman and SSR link (Debden/LHR)
Thirdly. Flying ops cease from one of the longest operational airfields in UK history. stn based a/c move to other locations and the helis 'detach' to Battersea when required.
I would like to see a re-alignment, but who knows... the MoD will probably close the runway and consign yet another piece of this countrys history to the books.
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The current operation will retain two Intermediate Directors and a Final Director (with a Support controller for the INTS when necessary). The new runway will have its own Intermediate Director and Final Director.
Also, depending on configuration (i.e. which of the main runways is operating arrivals) there would be a requiremet under ICAO for a monitoring Controller for each of the Final Approaches. This would only be necessary when the Centre runway operates arrivals as the spacing between this and the new approach would be about 1500m. (Spacing New to Southern would be about 2,800m.)
This has been simulated at TC and the Approach concept seems sound. There will be implications for the TMA though!
.4
Also, depending on configuration (i.e. which of the main runways is operating arrivals) there would be a requiremet under ICAO for a monitoring Controller for each of the Final Approaches. This would only be necessary when the Centre runway operates arrivals as the spacing between this and the new approach would be about 1500m. (Spacing New to Southern would be about 2,800m.)
This has been simulated at TC and the Approach concept seems sound. There will be implications for the TMA though!
.4
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Director
We probably need to know where the new runway will be before knowing which areas will be effected.
Heathrow Master Plan Map
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LHR 3rd RUNWAY STARs / SIDs
A TV News report suggested that the 3rd runway would be used for arrivals ONLY! I take it from posts on this subject that all three runways would in reality be used for both departures and arrivals, so typically the broadcast media has misunderstood what is proposed? Where would the current hold at BNN move to (likewise BIG, OCK and LAM)? No doubt much thought has gone into LHR's amended STARs and SIDs with the advent of a third runway - are the routeings in the public domain (if so where can they be found), or does a contributor feel brave enough to give a brief overview of so complex a subject?
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Where would the current hold at BNN move to (likewise BIG, OCK and LAM)? No doubt much thought has gone into LHR's amended STARs and SIDs with the advent of a third runway - are the routeings in the public domain (if so where can they be found), or does a contributor feel brave enough to give a brief overview of so complex a subject?
BD
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Agree with BD. The routings are not in the public domain and won't be for some time I'd imagine. It is fair to say though that the strategy is one of vertical segregation so that tracks can be crossed at a safe point after departure.
The media are wrong. The new runway will be mixed-mode, the other two will then go back to segregated (mixed-mode being an interim measure); alternation in a three runway operation will depend largly on the regulator's view of things.
.4
The media are wrong. The new runway will be mixed-mode, the other two will then go back to segregated (mixed-mode being an interim measure); alternation in a three runway operation will depend largly on the regulator's view of things.
.4
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However the public read it and take comments as gospel. There was already a massive fuss when very early design thoughts made it into the public domain. These with the holds much further out from London and the bases higher which facilitated CDA's.
BD
BD