You will only get a FIS from me!

[pimpernel]

I was working the usual EZE under RAS from Humberside to Aberdeen, as the ac approached the northern end of the Vale of York I was advised by Scot Mil that they were working to capacity and that they would not be able to provide the ac a service. I then spoke to Scot Civ who said they would work the traffic, but it would only get a FIS.

This was explained to the pilot, who's voice went up a couple of octaves, and stated that this was unacceptable. I then hurriedly arranged an airways joining clearance with the same Civ sector for the ac to join at NEW and fly the long way around.

The question is, how often does this happen? and secondly I had to confirm that only a FIS would be provided rather than a limited radar service which is the usuall fall back if the controller is busy.

[2 sheds]

Who knows? But it should be recorded in statistics as a refusal of service. Good on you for using initiative and doing your best for the pilot.

All goes to demonstrate how unsatisfactory it is to operate commercial flights in uncontrolled airspace. And no tinkering with the names of the services or risk assessment pantomime by the AO will prevent the situation that you describe.

[radar information]

If there is far too much military and unknown traffic flying about in the FIR then there is no reason why a controller cannot downgrade a service. Our priority is traffic inside CAS, and so we must decide whether or not we can adequately provide a RIS. If we can't then we either tell the a/c of the downgrade in service or get the a/c to route via CAS, and go as you have put it the long way round. I am sure that if the passengers knew the situation that they would be thankful for taking an extra 20mins to be safer than flying in and out of large groups of fast moving military jets.

It sounds like there was no refusal of service, just a controller deciding that the best service that he could provide would be a FIS. If the airlines are unhappy then they should file airways and be done with it.

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Pimpernel,

With the best will in the world, that's precisely what happens when you fly off-route in Class G airspace. None of the radar units providing a radar service in that airspace have flight plan information on most of the traffic they are likely to be working. Most of the aircraft either freecall, or are handed over by other similar units. Those units therefore have no real ability to predict when they are likely to get busy. Therefore it is first come, first served. If you are unfortunate to call at a time they are working to capacity, then they answer you received is the most likely outcome. You will note that the units concerned were both civ and mil, so its makes no difference as to who you call - if they're busy, they're busy.

If, however, you flight planned to fly airways (not always easy given the airfield of departure/destination), then you will not be subject to the problems you encountered. The flow through those sectors is based on the mandatory flight planning information provided and 'controlled' by Slots/flow regulation - thus protecting the controllers/sectors through which you will fly.

Please excuse the simplistic explanation, but that's it in a nutshell. If you fly outside CAS, then you go into the melting pot alongside Joe Soap in his C152, Billy Whizz in his Typhoon and any other pilot who wants to freecall to make use of the service/s available. The beauty of the service is that it is there and it gives all aviators flexibility. The downside is that there is only a limited amount of capacity, because units cannot predict traffic levels in advance - s... happens.

Commercial ops in Class 'G' have always been a thorny issue, but I for one (even as an air trafficker) would not want to see the loss of Class 'G' - there is such a thing as over-regulation. But in the end, you pay your money (or not) and takes your chance.

WJMcP

[throw a dyce]

It does ask the question of EZE that they continue to fly in Class G with a big military exercise going on.What sort of duty of care are they providing to their passengers.

[chevvron]

I seem to remember that Scottish Centre will only give RIS in class G anyway, but as their primary task is controlling traffic in regulated airspace and providing Air Traffic Advisory Service on notified specific routes, they may not have the capacity to handle traffic in class G. There is a notified class D airway from Teeside to Aberdeen though, but maybe the captain didn't want to climb that high as the main base level appears to be 155, lowering at each end.

[pimpernel]

Whilst I appreciate that Scot Civ priority is to look after their traffic inside CAS, the whole episode didn't really sit right. Yes there was lots of Mil traffic north of NEW and south of EDI, but the EZE flight in question was at FL185. The clearance to join at NEW was for FL180 and then route towards HAVEN. The airway doesn't even start to FL205 on that portion of airspace, yes that track is outside of a TRA but even then Class C doesn't start to FL195. So it just struck me as though the provision of even a RIS however limited seemed too much like trouble and therefore a bodge was put in place. The EZE flight would not have entered CAS until it reached the TMA.

My point is that under a RAS the pilot may be offered a re-route because of the amount of conflicting traffic on its planned track. Then it is up to the pilot to decide what to do. In a way this was done but in a far more brutal way.

I am not having a go at anyone, just opening up the debate.

[NigelOnDraft]

As a UK airline pilot, if I/my operator chose to go outside CAS, then what service I get/am offered is surely only going to be what's available. If the controller "cannot" offer a RAS or even RIS, fine, the problem is mine/my airline's, not the ATC units

If we want the protections of CAS, then fly in it - when in the military I've seen airliners routing through AIAA's, including needing abrupt avoidance, and just seemed bl**dy silly to me

[throw a dyce]

Chevvron,
The Class D airway is part-time.In the mornings and weekends when the military are not active.The military reserve the right to take it back if they need to but it looks like it wasn't active.EZE do use it when it's active,and fly the same way when it isn't.

[Radar O'Really]

Spot on Nigel,
There is enough regulated airspace as it is (with a few notable exceptions-Norwich always had a hard time years ago) but if you choose to fly in Class G look out of the windows and avoid. Don't expect ATC to do the job for you.

[anotherthing]

So would you rather a controller told you they would provide you with a radar service, when they were actually not really able to fulfill it properly due to other commitments?

What would then happen if there was an incident?

What the controller did was spot on. If they feel that for whatever reason they cannot provide you with a safe service under the provision and rules that govern it, then they should not try to provide it!

There are sufficient airways structure for GAT flights - the ECTR was taken away years ago because of ther headache it caused - if airlines feel comfortable planning for a flight full of fare paying passengers to fly in unregulated airspace then they must accept that the shortcut will not always be safe. Any controller worth their salt would refuse a radar service under these conditions.

[NorthSouth]

prpmernel:

the EZE flight in question was at FL185. The clearance to join at NEW was for FL180 and then route towards HAVEN

So Scottish gave him a clearance to "join" at NEW at FL180. Join what? FL180 at NEW is outside CAS (he'd have just left it). And given that he was outside CAS and Scottish had refused him anything better than a FIS outside CAS, did he still get only a FIS on this extended routing? Presumably the reason they did not give him FL220 from NEW (to keep him inside L602) is because he couldn't get up to FL220?
As for alternative routings, there are two routes suggested by the Standard Routes Document when P18 north of NEW is not available. One is NEW DCT SAB DCT ADN - "this route may be filed by traffic that wish to seek ATSOCAS from Scottish Military". The other is to POL then airways all the way to Abdn. The difference in track mileage surely can't be so big that it makes it much more acceptable to take the extra risk.
NS

[whowhenwhy]

Pimpernel, have you been at LATCC long? Good use of initiative routing him the "long way around" (as NS said, it's not that different - 30nms?) but what you're describing has been going on for years. ScATTC Mil only started taking them about 2-3 years ago, before that they just flew along the ADRs with Tay (ISTR). I take it that the EGNT/NV trade is still as lively as ever - Diddly Dee around for comment?

[Talla Radar]

Presumably the reason they did not give him FL220 from NEW (to keep him inside L602) is because he couldn't get up to FL220?


Unless they've changed it since this morning, the base of L602 is FL195 between NEW and OTBUN!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Unless they've changed it since this morning, the base of L602 is FL195 between NEW and OTBUN!

I've been using FL205 as the base for years in that airspace ..... it's FL195 between OTBUN and 552145N 0024114W

[The Fat Controller]

Since the introduction of Class C airspace, the airspace below the promulgated base of L602 (FL205) down to FL195 is controlled airspace at all times to the west of NEW until the base lowers.
It lies outwith any TRAs and the only people who can operate in there at THIS time are Scottish Civil and Mil.
Spadeadam will be joining the party in early 2008.
Happy New Year, NOT.

[Talla Radar]

Sorry, guess that's what I meant to say, honest!

The point is, the EZE could have flown at FL200 and been inside CAT C controlled airspace under L602 until OTBUN.