STAR
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STAR
A STAR has "FL180 10nm before Point X"
If you are cruising at eg FL200 and given this STAR by ATC should you ensure you make FL180 10nm before Point X, or should you wait for ATC to pass you a descent clearance?
If you are cruising at eg FL200 and given this STAR by ATC should you ensure you make FL180 10nm before Point X, or should you wait for ATC to pass you a descent clearance?
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I'm only a PPL with limited knowledge in this area, but I would suggest that if ATC issue you a standard procedure they assume you are aware of it and will then fly the procedure as directed by the plate. So you would descend to comply with the procedure at your discretion.
I'm not entirely sure you wouldn't be delivered onto th STAR at the correct FL, though.
Feel free to correct
I'm not entirely sure you wouldn't be delivered onto th STAR at the correct FL, though.
Feel free to correct
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I might be wrong, but i don´t agree with you. When atc gives you a STAR, he´s not implying you´re cleared to descend at own discretion, i think you should maintain your level and wait until he cleares you, and if he takes too long, you can always report "ready for descent".
Bear in mind that atc will deliver the STAR as soon as you enter the FIR where the airport is located, which can happen many miles before you need to descend.
Bear in mind that atc will deliver the STAR as soon as you enter the FIR where the airport is located, which can happen many miles before you need to descend.
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A STAR does not imply descent clearance. It is just an ideal routeing, with levels inserted for your planning purposes. If you're up at FL200 it could be for a myriad of reasons - do not descend of your own accord.
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Good point. I think I made the assumption that there would be no further instruction from ATC prior to commencing the procedure.
Perhaps I thought the fact that the plate says FL180 at a designated point means ATC can 'forget' about you for a little while once you're onto arrival, but then this would probably depend when you were given the instruction. If it was miles away from the transition then maybe not.
Perhaps I thought the fact that the plate says FL180 at a designated point means ATC can 'forget' about you for a little while once you're onto arrival, but then this would probably depend when you were given the instruction. If it was miles away from the transition then maybe not.
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Chilli... can a STAR be 'reworked' by ATC and flown at a different level if required, or does ATC have to get the aircraft onto the STAR at the correct level to start it?
This would imply no conflict from other patterns, of course.
This would imply no conflict from other patterns, of course.
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The levels given on STAR charts are for descent planning purposes only, it will say somewhere on them too that actually descent clearance will be given by Air Traffic Control so do not alter level unless otherwise instructed to do so. We (ATC) will occasionally amend the procedures to enable the safe passage around other a/c that may cross the STAR, or to ensure safe transit through to the designated holding point. Occasionally, with example, the WILLO 4C via GWC into LGW states FL130 by GWC, if there are a/c in the hold and ATC anticipate that FL130 will not be clear on your arrival, then you will transit GWC at a higher level that will be free for you to enter the hold at. Hope that helps.
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should you wait for ATC to pass you a descent clearance?
Many ATCs will assume (foolishly) you will make all the requirements and turns, it's part of the STAR; even if their clearance didn't enable you to comply.
When saying "We can't meet FL180 by 10 POINT", say what level you can reach as it will enable a better response from the ATC. I'd prefer "We can only meet FL195 by 10 POINT, <REASON> because of the late descent clearance, slowing up due turbulence", etc.
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Just amplifying over+outs' post - if you are given an altitude whilst on a SID by ATC - it overrides the SID... Not only do we want you to climb to it directly, but we do NOT want you to then climb to higher altitudes on the SID... The SID levels are effectively cancelled!!!
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It is scary that there even needs to be this discussion. I choked on my coffee when I saw the second post of "yeh I think you just descend even without a clearance to descend, cos you have to meet the STAR restrictions" 
We would much prefer someone be too high on a STAR than descend into traffic below. As far as climbing out on a SID, I would say the only time you climb above the cleared level from the controller to stay above a step is due to terrain. If you are going to hit a mountain goat without climbing then you climb, otherwise you always follow ATC level clearances. If you are worried that you are not going to meet STAR or SID restrictions then speak up in a quick and concise way.
We would much prefer someone be too high on a STAR than descend into traffic below. As far as climbing out on a SID, I would say the only time you climb above the cleared level from the controller to stay above a step is due to terrain. If you are going to hit a mountain goat without climbing then you climb, otherwise you always follow ATC level clearances. If you are worried that you are not going to meet STAR or SID restrictions then speak up in a quick and concise way.
