TATC Pay Rise
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TATC Pay Rise
As im sure most of you are aware, NATS have increased the salary for TATC's to £10k p.a. plus £60 per week tax free and £1k bonus when successfully completing the college, as of 1st September 2007. Firstly let me congratulate the people who have been working hard for this, the Unions and especially the new GM down there who i know had this on his agenda since starting the job.
However, this is a big increase in the salary. So, finally NATS have admitted they were wrong to drop the salary. But where does that leave all those people who have struggled (and i mean struggled) through the college on £10k, and even those people who are on the T&D scale, training at their unit on £15k? Myself one of them. I have sat here and worked out tax, NI contributions and pension etc. and have the following figures after deductions - TATC's are now on an annual salary of £11,343 and Band 1-3 trainees are now on £11,339. (£4 a year LESS than TATC's at the college!)
Those of us who have passed through the college on £10k per year (course 207 onwards) feel we should get some kind of compensation, I feel back pay is probably a little too much to ask of this company, but you never know...we may be surprised, especially as NATS by doing this have admitted you can't expect people to survive on £10k per year. That means, personally, I have missed out on £5k, which is £5k worth of debt I have got into trying to survive whilst at the college, which im now trying to pay back while im also trying to validate at my unit. Everyone agrees that it would take a huge weight off all our minds if we could get back pay, stop worrying about the bank and concentrate more on validating!
In fact, as i have mentioned above, the TATC package is now worth around £15k per year, and slightly more than current Band 1-3 trainees. So what about those of us who are on £15k at our units? We are earning less than TATC's? This isn't really the incentive we are after. Surely this cant be right, I was under the impression that the 3 year pay deal was agreed and incorporated the £10k p.a. TATC pay as well as the T&D scale for trainees out of their unit, so why are they allowed to change it without changing the rest of the scale?
This is really a question to the union members out there, and a reqest for some information and advice as to how you think we should play this, in trying to get some form of compensation, or at very least maybe the £1000 lump sum for completing the college, especially seeing as some of us havent even 'graduated' yet!
We are also interested in finding out where we stand 'legally' because it is not just new joiners who are entitled to the pay rise, it is people currently at the college (the people who signed exactly the same contracts as people on 207 onwards who have now left)
Thanks for your help, this shouldnt read like NATS owes us something, were just after information and those of us training on £15k feel this isnt fair.
However, this is a big increase in the salary. So, finally NATS have admitted they were wrong to drop the salary. But where does that leave all those people who have struggled (and i mean struggled) through the college on £10k, and even those people who are on the T&D scale, training at their unit on £15k? Myself one of them. I have sat here and worked out tax, NI contributions and pension etc. and have the following figures after deductions - TATC's are now on an annual salary of £11,343 and Band 1-3 trainees are now on £11,339. (£4 a year LESS than TATC's at the college!)
Those of us who have passed through the college on £10k per year (course 207 onwards) feel we should get some kind of compensation, I feel back pay is probably a little too much to ask of this company, but you never know...we may be surprised, especially as NATS by doing this have admitted you can't expect people to survive on £10k per year. That means, personally, I have missed out on £5k, which is £5k worth of debt I have got into trying to survive whilst at the college, which im now trying to pay back while im also trying to validate at my unit. Everyone agrees that it would take a huge weight off all our minds if we could get back pay, stop worrying about the bank and concentrate more on validating!
In fact, as i have mentioned above, the TATC package is now worth around £15k per year, and slightly more than current Band 1-3 trainees. So what about those of us who are on £15k at our units? We are earning less than TATC's? This isn't really the incentive we are after. Surely this cant be right, I was under the impression that the 3 year pay deal was agreed and incorporated the £10k p.a. TATC pay as well as the T&D scale for trainees out of their unit, so why are they allowed to change it without changing the rest of the scale?
This is really a question to the union members out there, and a reqest for some information and advice as to how you think we should play this, in trying to get some form of compensation, or at very least maybe the £1000 lump sum for completing the college, especially seeing as some of us havent even 'graduated' yet!
We are also interested in finding out where we stand 'legally' because it is not just new joiners who are entitled to the pay rise, it is people currently at the college (the people who signed exactly the same contracts as people on 207 onwards who have now left)
Thanks for your help, this shouldnt read like NATS owes us something, were just after information and those of us training on £15k feel this isnt fair.
Last edited by big-blue-sky; 9th Sep 2007 at 08:16.
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Excellent post. I to am happy that NATS have finally recognised that it is impossible to survive on 10k, thats about £200 a month after rent. I was on one of the first courses on the new salary and myself got about 3 grand in debt and I was one of the lucky ones who left the college in a reasonably short amount of time. But as you point out, how demoralising is it for current trainees at units to be on the same, or less, than new TATC's!
I think the union should definitly look into this for the rights of trainees from recent courses. But once again, excellent news for new trainees and well done to the GM at Hurn.
I think the union should definitly look into this for the rights of trainees from recent courses. But once again, excellent news for new trainees and well done to the GM at Hurn.
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i don't know about the rest of you but i feel that the company is finally made, if not a step, half a step in the right direction. I was fortunate not to be on the 207 onwards contract and having seen how some of the TATCs struggled their way through and ending up in debt, all credit to the new GM at Hurn and of course to the Union members who work tirelessly behind the scenes for having achieved this.
As mentioned above now, it is all about what information can be obtained in relation to the Trainees on the old contract who are earning the same, if not less, that the new Trainees at the college.
It was never explained very well as to the reason the wage went down and i would like to know (if at all possible) the reason for it to go up, despite the obvious that £10k p.a. is not enough to survive without getting into some sort of debt.
To summarise, well done to the Union and to the GM at Hurn for recognising that it was a struggle for the new Trainees.
As mentioned above now, it is all about what information can be obtained in relation to the Trainees on the old contract who are earning the same, if not less, that the new Trainees at the college.
It was never explained very well as to the reason the wage went down and i would like to know (if at all possible) the reason for it to go up, despite the obvious that £10k p.a. is not enough to survive without getting into some sort of debt.
To summarise, well done to the Union and to the GM at Hurn for recognising that it was a struggle for the new Trainees.
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What you need to realise is that Prospect recommended that pay cut a few years back.I was utterly disgusted at it,and to this day dont trust the unions.There are a lot of people who are in it to suit themselves,not all,but a good few.
I stood up and told The Barron that he was making a big mistake,that not only would applications decrease,but you would only be competing with universities and colleges for school leaving students.What we also need are older people already in other careers,but who have financial commitments and families to consider.That pay was derisory for them..."we will see" was that answer.................Hmmmmmmm.
As you go on in your career,you will see that Prospect arent exactly looking out for its members at all times...........
Just at thought,but its amazing how many ex-union guys there are in management,and how many are keen to get there when vacant Sup jobs come up
I stood up and told The Barron that he was making a big mistake,that not only would applications decrease,but you would only be competing with universities and colleges for school leaving students.What we also need are older people already in other careers,but who have financial commitments and families to consider.That pay was derisory for them..."we will see" was that answer.................Hmmmmmmm.
As you go on in your career,you will see that Prospect arent exactly looking out for its members at all times...........
Just at thought,but its amazing how many ex-union guys there are in management,and how many are keen to get there when vacant Sup jobs come up
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Thanks guys for the replies. I think its time we stood up and fought for some kind of compensation. I've been having a word around and back pay (For ALL TATC's on the 207 course onwards, including those still at the college) AND the £1000 payout for us who have left is REALISTIC....the terms and conditions have been changed WITHOUT consultation of the TATC members of the union beforehand.
The 3 year pay deal meant that the £10k as well as the £15k, 17.5k and £18k for trainees at bands 1-3 respectively was negotiated. How is it possible that part of this pay deal is re-negotiated and people at the college are now earning more than those out of the college who have worked hard to get out, and are rewarded with what - A PAY CUT!
Dual rated? I hear Liverpool and East Mids are looking for trainees, and its around £32k per annum (EVEN BEFORE YOU VALIDATE!)
The 3 year pay deal meant that the £10k as well as the £15k, 17.5k and £18k for trainees at bands 1-3 respectively was negotiated. How is it possible that part of this pay deal is re-negotiated and people at the college are now earning more than those out of the college who have worked hard to get out, and are rewarded with what - A PAY CUT!
Dual rated? I hear Liverpool and East Mids are looking for trainees, and its around £32k per annum (EVEN BEFORE YOU VALIDATE!)
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Talking about getting on the wrong coach in the right train!
Something, indeed, needs to be done. Ever since I joined NATS, I got the worst deals. Even the graduation party was shorter than before! It is revolting to see that people who have been successful through the college and for some of us at their units, under extremely tough conditions, are treated like this. How can we accept to get in debt during our training just because Prospect incompetently accepted a deal that had to be changed 18 months later? Prospect need to do something to sort out the issue. They should never had accepted the deal in the first place, it was unfair from everyone who voted for it in the company. They all went through the college with a great contract and once out of it they were more than happy to get it down to 10k so that they could then earn more money themselves! That's what the truth is:GREED. Thank God that some people had the sense and courage to finally change this TATC deal!
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Supertoad a good many of us who went through the college many years ago protested against this pay cut, the problem is they tie so many things in together in pay deals , management that is, they know how to play the game to get what they want.
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poor old you!
you are quite right that it is a disgrace that NATS reduced the trainee salary to 10,000 pounds and then did not tell you the terms and conditions of your employment!! Grow up. You took the job knowing the salary , worked out whether you could afford to live on it and then accepted the offer of training or not. to start bitching and saying that you should be recompensed for your losses is infantile at best and perhaps says something of the calibre of those people that accepted the job on that salary.
We should be paying trainees more but not because you are worth it at that stage of your life ( with perhaps the exception of some more mature trainees from different backgrounds ) but because we need to attract high calibre individuals with good levels of self motivation and maturity.
Get on with your career and progress through the pay scales to a very good salary with a good lifestyle and a rewarding profession ( for now!)
We should be paying trainees more but not because you are worth it at that stage of your life ( with perhaps the exception of some more mature trainees from different backgrounds ) but because we need to attract high calibre individuals with good levels of self motivation and maturity.
Get on with your career and progress through the pay scales to a very good salary with a good lifestyle and a rewarding profession ( for now!)
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Hear hear..
It wasn't forced on anyone. To join the company under those pay conditions and then complain is ludicrous. Work hard and validate and you will have a salary in line with your responsibilities.. Seems a lot of people join NATS with £££ signs in their eyes..
It wasn't forced on anyone. To join the company under those pay conditions and then complain is ludicrous. Work hard and validate and you will have a salary in line with your responsibilities.. Seems a lot of people join NATS with £££ signs in their eyes..
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Oh dear
I refer you to my earlier post. For the same reason you never went to work for the local council earning 11,000 pounds a year but would not have been able to live then I assume you would not have accepted this job unless you realised that in the long term it would be worth it. I SAY AGAIN I do think trainees should be paid more but for those that started on less thats what you signed up for.
As for whining on and on about higher calibre trainees. That is what we aspire to as well as a better training system , better ojti s etc etc. You cant stand still in this or any other profession.
Please stop blaming others for your predicament in life , any debt incurred was your debt taken by free will. You are in/entering a responsible profession where you will be liable for your own decisions. Thats what we get paid well for so either start acting the part or opt for another career!
As for whining on and on about higher calibre trainees. That is what we aspire to as well as a better training system , better ojti s etc etc. You cant stand still in this or any other profession.
Please stop blaming others for your predicament in life , any debt incurred was your debt taken by free will. You are in/entering a responsible profession where you will be liable for your own decisions. Thats what we get paid well for so either start acting the part or opt for another career!
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I think most of us that are valid realise that we have a great job and the pay is a great bonus, but there is more to it than just the money. However, for those still at the college and having to struggle with money worries, money is a real issue. It's quite easy for lots of folk on here to say "grow up", etc when they probably went through on a training salary of about £20000 or whatever the equivalent was then.
If NATS are now increasing the pay for trainees, this is obviously an admission that the previous salary wasn't enough, so you can understand the people that have missed out being slightly cheesed off. Let's hope they don't take the "grow up" attitude when it comes to voting on pensions, as we'll be needing all the support we can.
If NATS are now increasing the pay for trainees, this is obviously an admission that the previous salary wasn't enough, so you can understand the people that have missed out being slightly cheesed off. Let's hope they don't take the "grow up" attitude when it comes to voting on pensions, as we'll be needing all the support we can.
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What Big Blue Sky is alluding to and quite correctly imho is the factr that he and his colleagues have worked hard, got through the college and are now at their units (some valid) and are now earning LESS than those students currently at the college not exercising the privileges of a hard worked for license.
Yes they knew the terms and conditions when they signed up, yes they got themselves into debt whilst going through the college, yes they know that they will be earning a good living in the future.
Why on earth should they as controllers who have earned the right to hold the license be paid less than those currently at the college?
Why has the union allowed this to happen?
Yes they knew the terms and conditions when they signed up, yes they got themselves into debt whilst going through the college, yes they know that they will be earning a good living in the future.
Why on earth should they as controllers who have earned the right to hold the license be paid less than those currently at the college?
Why has the union allowed this to happen?
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Sorry, if my first post was a bit abrupt. Let's clarify the situation. When the new 10k deal was signed, only half of the new trainees on 207 ( the first course to get it) were told about it. When they all applied and had their interviews, it was still the old deal and nothing was mentionned about the 10k. They were only told a week or so before joining leaving them with no choice. The excuse from the union rep at the college was that there was nothing on paper and that what was on the internet was just only valid then! So apologies if some of us feell like having been stuffed by the company.
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So does the fact that I am willing to stand up for myself and fight for what I believe is right mean that I am not "acting the part"?
The issue that people have is the fact that when the wage was put to 10k, NATS thought that this was enough for people to live on. Now that they have put the wage up, they are admitting that this is not the case. People who start college now won't have to run up any debt, whereas other courses did. Fair enough, we all knew what we were signing up for. And people have been trying to get this change made for everybody, knowing full well that it would have no effect on them. And those people who fell foul of the trial deserve not to be paying back the debt for the next 2 years.
ifaxu, i'm sure that when you went through college, salary was high, and money wasn't an issue. Today, money is a worry every day, and this without a doubt is a detriment to standard of trainees. And i'm sure that if you were going through college right now, you're attitude would be slightly different. So get down off your pedestal...
The issue that people have is the fact that when the wage was put to 10k, NATS thought that this was enough for people to live on. Now that they have put the wage up, they are admitting that this is not the case. People who start college now won't have to run up any debt, whereas other courses did. Fair enough, we all knew what we were signing up for. And people have been trying to get this change made for everybody, knowing full well that it would have no effect on them. And those people who fell foul of the trial deserve not to be paying back the debt for the next 2 years.
ifaxu, i'm sure that when you went through college, salary was high, and money wasn't an issue. Today, money is a worry every day, and this without a doubt is a detriment to standard of trainees. And i'm sure that if you were going through college right now, you're attitude would be slightly different. So get down off your pedestal...
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Pedestals
snakes on a plane. Dont presume to know what my situation was when I went through the college. I took a pay cut to do so and had a family to support. I made a balanced judgement as to whether the career was worth the short term sacrifice and decided it was. I am not on a pedestal, but I do get rather tired of some people believing that the world owes them a living.
If you were not told the correct salary details on joining then I have massive sympathy for you and you probably do deserve some recompense.
However if very junior people within the company dont like to hear the opinions of us who have been through the same training process with similar problems and hardships then I humbly suggest it is their attitude which sucks , not mine!
If you were not told the correct salary details on joining then I have massive sympathy for you and you probably do deserve some recompense.
However if very junior people within the company dont like to hear the opinions of us who have been through the same training process with similar problems and hardships then I humbly suggest it is their attitude which sucks , not mine!
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I have never stated that I feel the world owes me a living. I feel that TATCs deserved to be paid by NATS in recognition of the vast amount of hard work that they do. And I'm not even suggesting that this should be a ridiculous amount; just enough to live off. There are many people like yourself who have families to support, and are having to do this on half of what you would have earned when you were at the college. And we do all make a judgement call; I wanted the job, not the money. But that doesn't mean that I can't try to make things better. And after all, aren't we all supposed to be on the same team? So what do you stand to gain from whinging about TATCs wanting a few extra quid so that they don't have to worry about money every second of every day?
I have the upmost respect for valid controllers, and infact any of my colleagues. But maybe if you kept this sort of opinion to yourself, then someday everyone might get what they want, and we will all be happy
Please don't think from this that TATCs are jumped up, outspoken little s**ts. After all, I never even said I was a TATC, did I?
I have the upmost respect for valid controllers, and infact any of my colleagues. But maybe if you kept this sort of opinion to yourself, then someday everyone might get what they want, and we will all be happy
Please don't think from this that TATCs are jumped up, outspoken little s**ts. After all, I never even said I was a TATC, did I?
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I am getting annoyed by you now!
bringing up families on half of what I earned indeed. and what exactly would that be then. Once again you are presumptious. you have no idea about what I earned as a trainee. As for the vast amount of work done by a TATC. Get real. They do NO productive work. Just as I did not until the day I validated. They do deserve to be paid a fair salary which if you read my posts on this subject I have said repeatedly.
Whether you are valid or not interests me not one jot. Your juvenile views and immature outlook on life suggest that you are unsuited to our profession and I hope not to be in a situation of having to work with you in the near future!
As for you telling me what to expect from TATC s , what a laugh , I suspect I have had far more contact with TATC s than yourself having trained them for fifteen years. Almost without exception they were very pleasant individuals with a good work ethic and well motivated. Maybe you were/are the exception to that.
Please would TATC s remember that every ojti and valid ATCO has been through the training system. some with more money , but other problems that made the course every bit as difficult as it is now.
Whether you are valid or not interests me not one jot. Your juvenile views and immature outlook on life suggest that you are unsuited to our profession and I hope not to be in a situation of having to work with you in the near future!
As for you telling me what to expect from TATC s , what a laugh , I suspect I have had far more contact with TATC s than yourself having trained them for fifteen years. Almost without exception they were very pleasant individuals with a good work ethic and well motivated. Maybe you were/are the exception to that.
Please would TATC s remember that every ojti and valid ATCO has been through the training system. some with more money , but other problems that made the course every bit as difficult as it is now.
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The work that TATCs do may not be productive in the grand scheme of things, but you surely cannot believe that TATCs aren't one of hardest working groups of people in the company?
And I don't see which of my views are juvenile. I didn't come looking for a slanging match with anyone in particular, I simply wanted to express my opinion. You cannot form an opinion on somebody based on 3 posts on an internet forum. And you're the one calling ME juvenile... Calm down a bit
And I don't see which of my views are juvenile. I didn't come looking for a slanging match with anyone in particular, I simply wanted to express my opinion. You cannot form an opinion on somebody based on 3 posts on an internet forum. And you're the one calling ME juvenile... Calm down a bit
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hard working
Based on your vast experience of other peoples jobs within NATS I assume.
I dont appreciate being patronised by fools so I will remove myself from this thread. If you are a trainee may I suggest that you take a long look at yourself and your career choice. I do not dispute the fact that TATC s work hard ( as they should ) . But trust me when they get to a unit and validate you dont just sit back and relax for the rest of your career. I work quite hard training , assessing and examining those TATC s that you mention!
I dont appreciate being patronised by fools so I will remove myself from this thread. If you are a trainee may I suggest that you take a long look at yourself and your career choice. I do not dispute the fact that TATC s work hard ( as they should ) . But trust me when they get to a unit and validate you dont just sit back and relax for the rest of your career. I work quite hard training , assessing and examining those TATC s that you mention!