TATC Pay Rise
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When the new TATC £10K pay deal was introduced...it was not just the new TATC terms and conditions which were changed (although the unions assured all existing TATCs it was). Existing TATCs lost their monthly trips home...It may seem minor in the scheme of things but the existing TATCs signed up to terms and conditions with a monthly trip home!
) now its £10k plus £60 a week tax free.BD
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure there are other companies out there who treat Student ATCO's as individuals and not a number, oh and pay double what we are on now....JUST TO TRAIN! Let see the pension after we all disappear.
I know atcos, or many NATS ones at least, live in their own little bubble of self importance and larger than average ego but I didn't realise we now appear to be recruiting this character trait specifically. I blame Gonzo!
I sympathise that you have to go through the training sytem on circa £10k a year. I sympathise even more with the millions out there that live on that same amount year in and year out with no prospect of ever reaching the £60k to £90k that NATS atcos will be on around 10 years into their working life. I sympathise more with all the trade apprentices out there who are probably earning less than £10k a year for a lot longer than a NATS atco trainee. I sympathise more with shelf stackers and cleaners and I certainly sympathise with all the budding 'Bus drivers out there who will be financing themselves, taking on serious loans, to the tune of up to £100k to get their ATPLs, MCCs and type ratings before they've even been offered a job. If you don't like being a trainee atco go and become a trainee pilot.
Get some perspective, please. The first year or eighteen months may be hard but assuming you are successful you are quickly going to end up earning two or three times average wage in the UK, at the top end putting you in the top 5% of earners and in a job that for the forseeable future and barring WW III breaking out offers pretty secure employment, certainly more than many.
Even whilst on £10k a year for the briefest of periods in your 40 year career you are actually in quite a fortunate position, if only you could see it.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid that some of the posters on this thread (along with alot of other ATCOs) overestimate the Unions influence on NATS. The company decided that it wanted to part fund the last wage case by reducing the TATC salary. It wasn't a good idea, many people said so, on here, at units round the country and, believe it or not, at union meetings. However it is not up to the Union to tell NATS where to find the money to fund the pay case, it is the Unions job to get the best deal for its existing members. That may seem brutal and short sighted to the TATCs coming in on the lower wage but this is the way NATS wanted to run their business (NATS responsibility) and all the existing Union members got a payrise (Prospects responsibility).
The Union does not have the power of veto on what NATS offers, there is negotiation but ultimately NATS can offer what it likes and the Union recommends the deal to the membership if it believes that it is the best offer likely. It is then up to the membership to decide if the union is right or not. More often than not the majority agree.
The Union recommended the last pay deal despite the significant reduction in salary for TATCs partially because the gains for successful TATCs out weighted the loss and partially because if the wage was too low it was a NATS business decision gone wrong not a union failing.
Now it has proved that the TATC wage is not enough and NATS has had to grant what is effectively an un-negotiated pay rise or, in other words, the pay pot has got bigger and nothing has been given up for it. In addition, the anomaly now exists where College students are paid more than college graduates in some cases which will make a great starting point for the next pay negotiations. Obviously salaries at the college won't be reduced next time around so pre-validation salaries will have to be raised, the bottom of the ATCO scales will have to be raised and everyone will benefit.
For those of you that went throught the college on the lower wage I'm sorry, you were in the right place at the wrong time, but everyone who subsequently validates will benefit from the rises in both the last pay round and the next one. It may seem like scant comfort now but the speed that new ATCOs go up the payscales is much, much faster than it used to be.
NATS would have liked to remove the student wage altogether, the argument being that pilots self fund, why not ATCOs? This episode may have put that issue to bed for a while.
The Union does not have the power of veto on what NATS offers, there is negotiation but ultimately NATS can offer what it likes and the Union recommends the deal to the membership if it believes that it is the best offer likely. It is then up to the membership to decide if the union is right or not. More often than not the majority agree.
The Union recommended the last pay deal despite the significant reduction in salary for TATCs partially because the gains for successful TATCs out weighted the loss and partially because if the wage was too low it was a NATS business decision gone wrong not a union failing.
Now it has proved that the TATC wage is not enough and NATS has had to grant what is effectively an un-negotiated pay rise or, in other words, the pay pot has got bigger and nothing has been given up for it. In addition, the anomaly now exists where College students are paid more than college graduates in some cases which will make a great starting point for the next pay negotiations. Obviously salaries at the college won't be reduced next time around so pre-validation salaries will have to be raised, the bottom of the ATCO scales will have to be raised and everyone will benefit.
For those of you that went throught the college on the lower wage I'm sorry, you were in the right place at the wrong time, but everyone who subsequently validates will benefit from the rises in both the last pay round and the next one. It may seem like scant comfort now but the speed that new ATCOs go up the payscales is much, much faster than it used to be.
NATS would have liked to remove the student wage altogether, the argument being that pilots self fund, why not ATCOs? This episode may have put that issue to bed for a while.
good post. Especially the last para. Mr Barron did wonder why trainees got paid anything when he joined the company and no doubt is still of the same opinion.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Barron thinks we(Band 1-2 units) should pay Nats for the glory of working for them.Bit like the No 2 F1 sponsorship driver in Spyker.Being at the arse end of Nats empire in Band 2 land,ourselves and the TATC get well shafted to keep the Band5 units quiet.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to do the job that badly, you should be prepared to put up with the crap that goes with it.
Whilst the poor little darling NATS cadets at the college are being paid a salary for training (and a survivable one at that), there are many other ATCO wannabees who are funding their own training and taking greater risks at ASTAC and Cwymbran.
The facts are that NATS cadets are no different from anyone else who takes on an "apprenticeship" or college education, it is ineviatable that in the short term, you come out of it with a qualification and some debt. The difference being, that NATS cadets can, if they are good enough, very quickly earn more money in a week than most other industries pay in a month.
Ultimately, if you don't like the terms and conditions, naff off somewhere else, there are plenty more applicants and, despite what drivel has been printed here, there never, ever will be a shortage of applicants for NATS Cadetships.
As for critisism of the union, again you are all mouth and no trousers. The union can only do what it's members want and obviously your local rep's aren't doing the job properly, that being the case, get off your opiniated arses and do the job yourself...if you've got the balls to do so, which I doubt.
Whilst the poor little darling NATS cadets at the college are being paid a salary for training (and a survivable one at that), there are many other ATCO wannabees who are funding their own training and taking greater risks at ASTAC and Cwymbran.
The facts are that NATS cadets are no different from anyone else who takes on an "apprenticeship" or college education, it is ineviatable that in the short term, you come out of it with a qualification and some debt. The difference being, that NATS cadets can, if they are good enough, very quickly earn more money in a week than most other industries pay in a month.
Ultimately, if you don't like the terms and conditions, naff off somewhere else, there are plenty more applicants and, despite what drivel has been printed here, there never, ever will be a shortage of applicants for NATS Cadetships.
As for critisism of the union, again you are all mouth and no trousers. The union can only do what it's members want and obviously your local rep's aren't doing the job properly, that being the case, get off your opiniated arses and do the job yourself...if you've got the balls to do so, which I doubt.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was an advertisement in the Daily Mail this week for NATS Trainees that specifically stated a start date in January. There may be no shortage of applicants but there seems to be a distinct shortage of suitable applicants.
The Union can take criticism, it gets the greatest amount of its feedback in this form, unfortunately. TATCs and prevalidation ATCOs have enough to worry about without adding union responsibilities (or crusading for back pay for that matter). As you can probably imagine from the above, being a Union Rep can be pretty frustrating and depressing. Not an experiance a trainee/new ATCO needs.
The Union can take criticism, it gets the greatest amount of its feedback in this form, unfortunately. TATCs and prevalidation ATCOs have enough to worry about without adding union responsibilities (or crusading for back pay for that matter). As you can probably imagine from the above, being a Union Rep can be pretty frustrating and depressing. Not an experiance a trainee/new ATCO needs.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know atcos, or many NATS ones at least, live in their own little bubble of self importance and larger than average ego but I didn't realise we now appear to be recruiting this character trait specifically. I blame Gonzo!
..................................
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Newcastle
Age: 38
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was an advertisement in the Daily Mail this week for NATS Trainees that specifically stated a start date in January. There may be no shortage of applicants but there seems to be a distinct shortage of suitable applicants.
Either way I'm in favour!
Rich
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Ah now thats interesting! There was actually some quid pro quo in exchange for the extra £60 a week. Previously it was 10k plus a monthly trip home (and I assume eveyone lived in Aberdeen ) now its £10k plus £60 a week tax free."
BD you wrote this, but having talked to some TATC's who have been at the college recently the monthly trip home was removed when the pay was cut to £10k. So tehre is no quit pro quos - NATS have merely reintroduced WAP (Weekly Accomodation Payments) from a few years ago but not knocked £40 a week off.
BD you wrote this, but having talked to some TATC's who have been at the college recently the monthly trip home was removed when the pay was cut to £10k. So tehre is no quit pro quos - NATS have merely reintroduced WAP (Weekly Accomodation Payments) from a few years ago but not knocked £40 a week off.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: south coast
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arkady - thanks for the insight, this is the kind of helpful information i was after by starting this thread!
And Roffa, i think you are clearly missing the point here. We signed up to the £10k, yes, we are not complaining about that. How would you like someone with less experience than you to be earning more than you? Think about that for a while.
And Roffa, i think you are clearly missing the point here. We signed up to the £10k, yes, we are not complaining about that. How would you like someone with less experience than you to be earning more than you? Think about that for a while.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How would you like someone with less experience than you to be earning more than you?
Life is not fair....get used to it .
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny Scotland
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, this is my experience with nats and payscale changes.
When i joined, the way it worked was that when you left the college, you went straight to the bottom of the atco2 scale for enroute controllers. Half way through my course however the T & D scale was brought in. I didnt agree with it, didnt want it, and thought it was unfair. However, as is the way with these things it was tacked onto another deal which was beneficial to the superior number of valid atco's out there so it was accepted. So, hey presto, you were on the t &D scale for 2 years after you left. It was a hastily thought out plan which didnt take into account those that would validate before the 2 years was up (i.e. those not going to london-not a pop btw). consequently i spent 6 months on the t&D scale as a valid atco. subsequent courses too were affected.
Why the story you ask, well some years later NATS revisited the situation and some courses were given effectively a rebate of some if not all of the money the lost out on. However not all courses were lucky. My course was 1 of i think 2 or 3 that missed out. My point is that NATS may look at the situation and reimburse you. If they do, it will usually take a while, and will require a lot of discussion between you and your union rep to keep the topic current. If they dont, then they dont!! Yes, its crap but hey thats life!!
I didnt vote for the deal that put your money down, because of what happened to me. I knew that that wage would be very difficult to live on especially when you have to find your own accommodation and food. but it went through anyway. Get used to that, it can happen a lot
I'm not trying to be a doom monger and i wish you all the best, NATS can move in mysterious ways, or not at all!!
When i joined, the way it worked was that when you left the college, you went straight to the bottom of the atco2 scale for enroute controllers. Half way through my course however the T & D scale was brought in. I didnt agree with it, didnt want it, and thought it was unfair. However, as is the way with these things it was tacked onto another deal which was beneficial to the superior number of valid atco's out there so it was accepted. So, hey presto, you were on the t &D scale for 2 years after you left. It was a hastily thought out plan which didnt take into account those that would validate before the 2 years was up (i.e. those not going to london-not a pop btw). consequently i spent 6 months on the t&D scale as a valid atco. subsequent courses too were affected.
Why the story you ask, well some years later NATS revisited the situation and some courses were given effectively a rebate of some if not all of the money the lost out on. However not all courses were lucky. My course was 1 of i think 2 or 3 that missed out. My point is that NATS may look at the situation and reimburse you. If they do, it will usually take a while, and will require a lot of discussion between you and your union rep to keep the topic current. If they dont, then they dont!! Yes, its crap but hey thats life!!
I didnt vote for the deal that put your money down, because of what happened to me. I knew that that wage would be very difficult to live on especially when you have to find your own accommodation and food. but it went through anyway. Get used to that, it can happen a lot
I'm not trying to be a doom monger and i wish you all the best, NATS can move in mysterious ways, or not at all!!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And Roffa, i think you are clearly missing the point here. We signed up to the £10k, yes, we are not complaining about that. How would you like someone with less experience than you to be earning more than you? Think about that for a while.
If you were to be employed by NATS in the non operational side of the business, thanks to elements of performance related pay it's quite possible someone with a bit less experience than you could be getting a higher rate for the same job title.
It's an unfortunate anomaly but not at all a unique one, just try to keep an eye on the bigger picture. You have hopefully got a long career ahead of you in NATS, well if you end up in NERL anyway, and you'll find out soon enough that there are plenty of other inconsistencies and issues around. Look on this as a learning experience inducting you into the joys of working for this particular company.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is definitely the case that someone at a unit earns less than someone at the college? Looking at the payscales it does look close but the person at the unit is earning a little more.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Hampshire
Age: 50
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The company decided that it wanted to part fund the last wage case by reducing the TATC salary. It wasn't a good idea, many people said so, on here, at units round the country and, believe it or not, at union meetings. However it is not up to the Union to tell NATS where to find the money to fund the pay case, it is the Unions job to get the best deal for its existing members. That may seem brutal and short sighted to the TATCs coming in on the lower wage but this is the way NATS wanted to run their business (NATS responsibility) and all the existing Union members got a payrise (Prospects responsibility).
The Union recommended the last pay deal despite the significant reduction in salary for TATCs partially because the gains for successful TATCs out weighted the loss and partially because if the wage was too low it was a NATS business decision gone wrong not a union failing.
Now it has proved that the TATC wage is not enough and NATS has had to grant what is effectively an un-negotiated pay rise or, in other words, the pay pot has got bigger and nothing has been given up for it. In addition, the anomaly now exists where College students are paid more than college graduates in some cases which will make a great starting point for the next pay negotiations. Obviously salaries at the college won't be reduced next time around so pre-validation salaries will have to be raised, the bottom of the ATCO scales will have to be raised and everyone will benefit.
For those of you that went throught the college on the lower wage I'm sorry, you were in the right place at the wrong time, but everyone who subsequently validates will benefit from the rises in both the last pay round and the next one. It may seem like scant comfort now but the speed that new ATCOs go up the payscales is much, much faster than it used to be.
NATS would have liked to remove the student wage altogether, the argument being that pilots self fund, why not ATCOs? This episode may have put that issue to bed for a while.
The Union recommended the last pay deal despite the significant reduction in salary for TATCs partially because the gains for successful TATCs out weighted the loss and partially because if the wage was too low it was a NATS business decision gone wrong not a union failing.
Now it has proved that the TATC wage is not enough and NATS has had to grant what is effectively an un-negotiated pay rise or, in other words, the pay pot has got bigger and nothing has been given up for it. In addition, the anomaly now exists where College students are paid more than college graduates in some cases which will make a great starting point for the next pay negotiations. Obviously salaries at the college won't be reduced next time around so pre-validation salaries will have to be raised, the bottom of the ATCO scales will have to be raised and everyone will benefit.
For those of you that went throught the college on the lower wage I'm sorry, you were in the right place at the wrong time, but everyone who subsequently validates will benefit from the rises in both the last pay round and the next one. It may seem like scant comfort now but the speed that new ATCOs go up the payscales is much, much faster than it used to be.
NATS would have liked to remove the student wage altogether, the argument being that pilots self fund, why not ATCOs? This episode may have put that issue to bed for a while.
. One of the reasons I voted for the deal was that I KNEW that the Company had made an ar$e of the TATC salary and would have to increase it again sometime. 10K plus whatever bonuses was never going to attract the 'right' sort of people, especially those like me who already had a career and family. I was one of the lucky ones to be on almost double that when I went through the college. Even then it was tight but the carrot of significant wage increases saw me through.TBH I'm a bit split on whether there should be recompense or not for the folks who have already gone through and misses the revised wage/condition (call it what you will) increase. I can see both sides of the coin but cant really decide where I stand on this (although its of no consequence anyway WHAT my position is)
As has been said in the above post the Union has to look out for its existing members, not second guess terms and conditions for future members. This might sound harsh but the reality is that its the ONLY way to conduct negotiations. Those who think the Union should do otherwise are a bit misguided IMHO.
One thing I CAN say for certainty is that I'm glad that I'm valid and not starting at the college now.
Spamcan
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not wishing to stir it, but some other courses have received 'unsoliticed' payments (one-off as far as I understand), that other courses didn't get...although of course nowhere near this much of an increase.