Zurich Tower - How to clog up the R/T
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Zurich Tower - How to clog up the R/T
Is it just me or are other people who are frequent users of ZRH getting sick and tired of the 'running commentary' given by ATC of how long you have got to either start or take off.
It is of course nice to know when you are going if you have a delay which is not obvious but being told 'expect departure in 30 seconds' whilst lining up is a waste of R/T time and distracts me from my chain of thought if I am doing any checks etc. On the same note if I am 3rd in the queue to take off then I have a rough idea of when I will be getting airborne so on initial contact why not cut out the 'expect departure in X minutes' for a transmission which is more useful.
I have never operated into a major airport where controllers waste so much R/T time as those do in Zurich. If the same happened at Heathrow for example then nothing would move since the R/T would be log jammed.
Sadly a UK MOR might not hit the required spot but I am very tempted to fill one in.
It is of course nice to know when you are going if you have a delay which is not obvious but being told 'expect departure in 30 seconds' whilst lining up is a waste of R/T time and distracts me from my chain of thought if I am doing any checks etc. On the same note if I am 3rd in the queue to take off then I have a rough idea of when I will be getting airborne so on initial contact why not cut out the 'expect departure in X minutes' for a transmission which is more useful.
I have never operated into a major airport where controllers waste so much R/T time as those do in Zurich. If the same happened at Heathrow for example then nothing would move since the R/T would be log jammed.
Sadly a UK MOR might not hit the required spot but I am very tempted to fill one in.
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I'd be more concerned with zurich ATC's inability to vector properly. Surely even a basic knowledge of the relationship between altitude, speed and track miles required is a requirement for an ATCO? And they could loose the attitude too.
They can get away with the superfluous RT on the ground because the airport is not exactly the busiest around (and thankfully so, a busy zurich would be positively dangerous given it's crazy layout and dodgy ATC).
They can get away with the superfluous RT on the ground because the airport is not exactly the busiest around (and thankfully so, a busy zurich would be positively dangerous given it's crazy layout and dodgy ATC).
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ElNino
You echo my sentiments exactly.... I am relieved I am not the only pilot who has this view. Interesting you mention the attitude displayed by some of the controllers... you are spot on but I was perhaps afraid to launch in with a first post and mention that as well. We all have bad days at work but condescending remarks on the R/T are out of order.
I was offered a closing turn for the ILS the other day at 15nm and I still had 7000ft to loose (after being kept high)! I declined obviously! I think a quick lesson in the 3 times table would not go a miss with some of the controllers.
On a more serious note I was cleared take off on R28 a couple of weeks ago before a departure off R16 had crossed the intersection between the two runways. Bloody dangerous! What made it even worse was after I waited for the departing aircraft to clear, I queried it with the controller and her response was 'You will never catch him'!!!
ASR filed at the close of play that day and I eagerly await to hear back from my company as to what the response from Skyguide is - if any!
Zurich has a couple of very good ATCOs but the rest let the side down! As one of my colleagues told me - 'They (ZRH ATC) think they are the best but they are far from it'. So true!
You echo my sentiments exactly.... I am relieved I am not the only pilot who has this view. Interesting you mention the attitude displayed by some of the controllers... you are spot on but I was perhaps afraid to launch in with a first post and mention that as well. We all have bad days at work but condescending remarks on the R/T are out of order.
I was offered a closing turn for the ILS the other day at 15nm and I still had 7000ft to loose (after being kept high)! I declined obviously! I think a quick lesson in the 3 times table would not go a miss with some of the controllers.
On a more serious note I was cleared take off on R28 a couple of weeks ago before a departure off R16 had crossed the intersection between the two runways. Bloody dangerous! What made it even worse was after I waited for the departing aircraft to clear, I queried it with the controller and her response was 'You will never catch him'!!!
ASR filed at the close of play that day and I eagerly await to hear back from my company as to what the response from Skyguide is - if any!Zurich has a couple of very good ATCOs but the rest let the side down! As one of my colleagues told me - 'They (ZRH ATC) think they are the best but they are far from it'. So true!
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Having no experience with the Zurich ATCS but my advice for pilots if they have problems with ATC anywhere in the World use REPORTS . Bunch of reports could force ATC management to change something in daily opeartions, otherwise things would continiue to happen.Maybe it is not correct but I strongly believe that it is the only way.
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Only snag is that on a national level then reporting does work but if you are dealing with a foreign agency such as this then the 'clout' of a MOR or such will be far more limted than if I was raising an issue with something witihin my country.
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geezer......let me get this right...you had to loose 7000ft at 15 miles to get on the profile??????
Can I deduce that they vectoreded you at 15 miles at 14000ft QNH??
At 15 miles @ 7000 feet QNH (5500FT QFE) one is bang on the profile.......7000 ft to loose at this point I guess is 14000feet.
Tell us more as if someone tried that on me I'd have been onto the duty watch supervisor after landing demanding did he think I was the shuttle. I find those reports you talk about get lost in the bowels of admin.
With respect to Zurich ATC they have never messed me up....they can leave one a little high on the profile but being dirty on the base turn one can slip onto the profile with ease......7000 ft high....thats another days work!!!
Can I deduce that they vectoreded you at 15 miles at 14000ft QNH??
At 15 miles @ 7000 feet QNH (5500FT QFE) one is bang on the profile.......7000 ft to loose at this point I guess is 14000feet.
Tell us more as if someone tried that on me I'd have been onto the duty watch supervisor after landing demanding did he think I was the shuttle. I find those reports you talk about get lost in the bowels of admin.
With respect to Zurich ATC they have never messed me up....they can leave one a little high on the profile but being dirty on the base turn one can slip onto the profile with ease......7000 ft high....thats another days work!!!
Geezer; takeoff clearance whilst an aircraft is also departing from a cross runway is allowed in some cases; it's called 'anticipated separation'; I've seen it in an ICAO Doc but can't find it now. It's widely used in the USA.
Last edited by chevvron; 15th Jul 2007 at 08:39.
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The altimeter was showing 8500 AMSL, which is 7000 AGL with the DME showing 15 miles so we were high with the obligatory tailwind on R14 as well!
With regards to the take off clearance... no other controller at ZRH has done anything similar which leads me to suspect it is a rogue clearance! I could be wrong but that is at least my impression!
With regards to the take off clearance... no other controller at ZRH has done anything similar which leads me to suspect it is a rogue clearance! I could be wrong but that is at least my impression!
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that alt and track dist ring a bell re ZHR........have they not their hands tied on this one re early morn and late night arrivals re the german border...noise etc...
my only beef here is high descent rates re granite and the tailwinds.....then you get on final...and see traffic departing off 28 straight into the G/A path of 14. We had this out with them a few years ago and they say there is no conflict....yeah roight!
they'll also leave you high when its pis"ing snow.....
my only beef here is high descent rates re granite and the tailwinds.....then you get on final...and see traffic departing off 28 straight into the G/A path of 14. We had this out with them a few years ago and they say there is no conflict....yeah roight!
they'll also leave you high when its pis"ing snow.....
