Manchester AAVA 'ban'.
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Manchester AAVA 'ban'.
From what I can gather Manchester Area Controllers are, this month, carrying out their own unofficial AAVA ban. That is they are declining AAVA's. Im not sure of the ins and outs except that I know it's not official industrial action so there are no comebacks on the union. I'm under the impression that it's the beginning of the frustration of the Manchester situation manifesting itself through real action. The unit itself runs on AAVA's and with the staffing crisis, the banding issue and the NPC move (all of which have been so well documented here that I don't need to explain further) I guess the guys have just had enough and are demonstrating that with their feet. I still get the feeling that no-one will listen and it's only going to get worse. Watch this space.
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TC and Swanwick also rely on AAVA's so sooner they sort out the staffing the better, although some of us are of the opinion that it is cheaper for NATS to pay AAVA's rather than controllers annual salaries.
When you add in the cost of training, AAVA's are an absolute bargain to management.
If you run 10% down on staff numbers during a relocation, that's 10% less in relocation costs too.
Still, there will always be someone willing to do an AAVA, it's a lot of money if you're newly valid.
If you run 10% down on staff numbers during a relocation, that's 10% less in relocation costs too.
Still, there will always be someone willing to do an AAVA, it's a lot of money if you're newly valid.
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I think it's more a case of frustration with the managers who have made and are making decisions where MACC is concerned which is now on a sharply decreasing spiral where morale is concerned. the unit is at crisis point now and the guys have been told they will be getting no more staff, training for NPC is expected to be high, no more moves for ATCO2's, all perks have gone, coupled with the move to Scottish, being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements (behind TC only for NATS) 2 hours on and half an hour off to debrief your trainee etc, and then the banding debacle (which is now being legally challenged at last). Unless you work there (you may give your opinion) but you have no idea of the veracity of feeling against management. Crisis management going critically wrong.
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being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements (behind TC only for NATS)
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It has; but...we have subsequently found out that those figures filter out and dont take account of any of our traffic at FL80 and below, which is quite a high number (don't forget EGCC works traffic from airborne to FL285) making our rating even lower than it really should be.
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Manc boy
"if macc is so busy then how come s29 never, or hardly never, have any traffic to affect slowing climbing traffic out of the ltma?
"we'll watch it through" is the standard response, blocking 5ooo feet of airspace if its a virgin 340.
once this document appears on natsnet, then i'll believe it!"
As for S29 not being busy-I'll let those guys answer that one. As for your last comment about natsnet-what happens if and when you have to believe it?
"if macc is so busy then how come s29 never, or hardly never, have any traffic to affect slowing climbing traffic out of the ltma?
"we'll watch it through" is the standard response, blocking 5ooo feet of airspace if its a virgin 340.
once this document appears on natsnet, then i'll believe it!"
As for S29 not being busy-I'll let those guys answer that one. As for your last comment about natsnet-what happens if and when you have to believe it?
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then i and the rest of lacc will believe it!
until then i shan't bother holding my breath and. i'll keep noting that on the weekly traffic figures macc keeps going down whereas tc/lacc keeps going up
with regard to 'the document', is it all of macc that is complex or just a small portion?
until then i shan't bother holding my breath and. i'll keep noting that on the weekly traffic figures macc keeps going down whereas tc/lacc keeps going up
with regard to 'the document', is it all of macc that is complex or just a small portion?
Last edited by MancBoy; 9th Jul 2007 at 21:17.
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Don't worry Manch chums, as mentioned above it seems you're traffic is reducing whilst everyone elses is going up.
Should make it a bit less complicated for you
Should make it a bit less complicated for you
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Don't worry Manch chums, as mentioned above it seems you're traffic is reducing whilst everyone elses is going up.
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When the NATS supplied traffic figures were used by some at MACC to try and support their argument against the banding proposals, there were many voices from the south rubbishing the figures for a variety of reasons. And now the figures have changed (by only a very few percentage points) to favour other units, they're suddenly credible and to be believed? Don't think so. Seems there are a number of anomolies and issues with the way in which the figures are compiled for ALL units.
And as for needing verification of a MACC sector/airspace being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements.....it's not the first report/document to suggest this. I believe the report (and I stand to be corrected on this) came out of Eurocontrol......don't think they have any particular axe to grind....could they not be considered independant enough for the figures to have some credibility?
So a thread that started about some of the issues at MACC turns into a them and us slanging match between the units.....again.
How about keeping things in context whichever unit we work for (and to show a bit of balance ..."2 hours on and half an hour off to debrief your trainee"? ....don't know of a single instance when someone has worked for 2hrs unless there have been extenuating circumstances.....if it happened more than once on the unit every couple of months I'd be suprised. Having said that, an AAVA "ban" will see that change).
So MACC is busy and faces some issues....just like many units. If you're not working at MACC come and visit (always welcome) and base your opinions of the unit on what you've seen....not the (often jaundiced and uninformed) rumours and postings you may come across.
And as for needing verification of a MACC sector/airspace being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements.....it's not the first report/document to suggest this. I believe the report (and I stand to be corrected on this) came out of Eurocontrol......don't think they have any particular axe to grind....could they not be considered independant enough for the figures to have some credibility?
So a thread that started about some of the issues at MACC turns into a them and us slanging match between the units.....again.
How about keeping things in context whichever unit we work for (and to show a bit of balance ..."2 hours on and half an hour off to debrief your trainee"? ....don't know of a single instance when someone has worked for 2hrs unless there have been extenuating circumstances.....if it happened more than once on the unit every couple of months I'd be suprised. Having said that, an AAVA "ban" will see that change).
So MACC is busy and faces some issues....just like many units. If you're not working at MACC come and visit (always welcome) and base your opinions of the unit on what you've seen....not the (often jaundiced and uninformed) rumours and postings you may come across.
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Sorry, I didn't realise this was about 'issues', it seemed more an announcement.
If you want to talk about issues.....
Just how common is working 2 hours then half hour breaks? If it is common, and thought to be unsuitable, what pressure is being brought to bear on management to re-negotiate for a local agreement of enhanced relief? Why does this happen? Valid WMs, Sups etc taking too long out of the line? People declining AAVAs? Perhaps the AAVA trigger should be looked at?
What is being done to to make you guys feel more comfortable about the move?
If you want to talk about issues.....
Just how common is working 2 hours then half hour breaks? If it is common, and thought to be unsuitable, what pressure is being brought to bear on management to re-negotiate for a local agreement of enhanced relief? Why does this happen? Valid WMs, Sups etc taking too long out of the line? People declining AAVAs? Perhaps the AAVA trigger should be looked at?
What is being done to to make you guys feel more comfortable about the move?
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Balloon 24, I have visited MACC on numerous occasions recently and have plugged in on STAFA/TRENT and S29 and at no point have I thought that it was so complex to be rated 5th in Europe.
Plus, how do you explain Eurocontrol producing a document without knowing the ins and outs of each and every sector in UK airspace and also without plugging in to the actual position at the same time every day on each sector to be able to make a balanced judgement?
Regarding 2hours on half an hour off, do MACC not have enhanced relief when this shouldn't be happening? If you do then your union rep should be doing something about it!
Plus, how do you explain Eurocontrol producing a document without knowing the ins and outs of each and every sector in UK airspace and also without plugging in to the actual position at the same time every day on each sector to be able to make a balanced judgement?
Regarding 2hours on half an hour off, do MACC not have enhanced relief when this shouldn't be happening? If you do then your union rep should be doing something about it!
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Gonzo- as I said above, 2hrs on sector very rarely happens and if so usually for extenuating circumstances. Hour and a half on then 30 mins break all day, all cycle certainly not unusual though.
The MACC enhanced relief agreements dictate that for most of the MACC sectors, 1.5 hours on sector is the max for large parts of the day (or for some of the sectors ALL day) ....which again seems to support the argument that high sector traffic levels and/or complexity at MACC are not a myth?
As for sector complexity being rated 5th in Europe....afraid I don't have the personnal experience across Europen centres/sectors to comment.....however I 'm assuming that Eurocontrol (if indeed it was them who compiled the report) put a bit of thought into the process and didn't just draw names of sectors/centres out of a hat.
The MACC enhanced relief agreements dictate that for most of the MACC sectors, 1.5 hours on sector is the max for large parts of the day (or for some of the sectors ALL day) ....which again seems to support the argument that high sector traffic levels and/or complexity at MACC are not a myth?
As for sector complexity being rated 5th in Europe....afraid I don't have the personnal experience across Europen centres/sectors to comment.....however I 'm assuming that Eurocontrol (if indeed it was them who compiled the report) put a bit of thought into the process and didn't just draw names of sectors/centres out of a hat.
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1.5 on 30 mins off, so what do we do at the other units then?
I've also spent time at MAAS on their busiest and most complex sector, the one around COA, and it definitely was worse than MACC, not quite as complex as TC (which I have validated on so know a bit about it) and on a par with some of the LACC sectors.
So where was that on the 'list'
I've also spent time at MAAS on their busiest and most complex sector, the one around COA, and it definitely was worse than MACC, not quite as complex as TC (which I have validated on so know a bit about it) and on a par with some of the LACC sectors.
So where was that on the 'list'
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Ballon 24. The report may be considered to be credible being from eurocontrol but as you've seen by the the original banding calculations and results that followed, they will not always represent the true picture or can be misinterpreted. The problem is no formula or report will ever calculate for the differences between centres and sectors its just too complicated. Unfortunately this means the banding issue may never be resolved.
As for the legal challenge to banding it will fail for the above reason.
I'm glad you guys are starting to kick some ass up there about the way you've been treated but don't lose sight of a reasoned argument.
As for the legal challenge to banding it will fail for the above reason.
I'm glad you guys are starting to kick some ass up there about the way you've been treated but don't lose sight of a reasoned argument.
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I think this might be the document people are referring to:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/galle..._%20report.pdf
http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/galle..._%20report.pdf