Manchester AAVA 'ban'.
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Read up a few posts. The Beaver muncher obviously thinks both moves are the same.
A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?
A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?
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Every move from one unit to another is unique.
The only, and I'm afraid overwhelming, similarity to TC/LACC is that we all signed up for the job, knowing full well the implications of being a 'mobile grade'.
The only, and I'm afraid overwhelming, similarity to TC/LACC is that we all signed up for the job, knowing full well the implications of being a 'mobile grade'.
Join Date: May 2007
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why would manchester ever be considwewd for band 5 pay??
whatever statistics are banded about does not get away from the facvt that swanwick and tc ARE much busier. you dont see many retread trainess getting sent down south for another shot at training on a TC or AC sector. I could name you 10 -15 off the top of my head who have gone north though.
the real banding issue should be why just because you work in the same building should not mean you get the same band money. e.g ltma sectors/ll/kk have more of a case for being band 5 than gw in my opinion. Im not saying that GW should be banded down a level, just that they are significantly better off than they would be had they still to go to work at the base of gw tower.
whatever statistics are banded about does not get away from the facvt that swanwick and tc ARE much busier. you dont see many retread trainess getting sent down south for another shot at training on a TC or AC sector. I could name you 10 -15 off the top of my head who have gone north though.
the real banding issue should be why just because you work in the same building should not mean you get the same band money. e.g ltma sectors/ll/kk have more of a case for being band 5 than gw in my opinion. Im not saying that GW should be banded down a level, just that they are significantly better off than they would be had they still to go to work at the base of gw tower.
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PPdude said:
Read up a few posts. The Beaver muncher obviously thinks both moves are the same.
A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?
Its all part of the UK. Plenty of folks come from Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland to work in England without problem. Trust me, if you work at TC and live north of London e.g. Beds, Bucks or Herts - then a move to the south coast is saying goodbye to friends, family, schools - its a new start as its way too far to commute
Read up a few posts. The Beaver muncher obviously thinks both moves are the same.
A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?
Its all part of the UK. Plenty of folks come from Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland to work in England without problem. Trust me, if you work at TC and live north of London e.g. Beds, Bucks or Herts - then a move to the south coast is saying goodbye to friends, family, schools - its a new start as its way too far to commute
Disappointed
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ImnotanERIC - as I suggested earlier, perhaps being busier doesn't correlate directly and proportionately to the complexity of the task in hand. Not as easily measurable, certainly. But more relevant than a dull "number of aircraft" statistic, definitely.
And perhaps the fact that there are so many re-treads farmed out to other units says something too about the training regimes and personnel at those first units of failure wherever they may be, and poor college intake and teaching methods - as opposed to the job on such and such a unit being so difficult that it's only for REAL controllers, as you seem to imply.
We really do need to move away from this macho "we move more traffic than you therefore our task is harder and yours is easier and less important" blight that plays exactly into the hands of an upper management regime more than willing to divide and rule.
Personally I've always been dead against the banding system, vociferously so. And that would continue to be the case regardless of whether I happened to find myself at the top or bottom of it.
Perhaps I'm stupid in believing that if someone does the same job as me, for the same company, using the same skills, after going through the same training - then they deserve the same treatment and pay and benefits as I.
Perhaps the culture of greed and personal gain really has replaced any form of comradeship and togetherness. If so, I fear my friends that eventually, we're all doomed......
And yes, we're all mobile grades. But it's ludicrous to suggest that a move to Scotland, where the very basics of modern life (education, legal system, even political system) differ from the point of origin. That is hardly comparable to a move down a short stretch of motorway along which spouses and employees can happily commute without the need for a complete life change for the whole family.
And lest we not forget, it was a move and a policy undertaken without any sort of consultation with any of the staff it may affect.
So yeah, by the book, we're all mobile and should go where we're put. But what about treating employees with some reason and respect.
I wonder what would have happend if, instead of moving from West Drayton to LACC, the move would have been to a new Scottish super-centre - entirely hypothetical of course (and unlikely too, naturally). But just supposing if....
I suppose now those of you insisting our move to NPC is no different than your move to LACC will insist you would have skipped along nicely without a single gripe or care in the World....
And perhaps the fact that there are so many re-treads farmed out to other units says something too about the training regimes and personnel at those first units of failure wherever they may be, and poor college intake and teaching methods - as opposed to the job on such and such a unit being so difficult that it's only for REAL controllers, as you seem to imply.
We really do need to move away from this macho "we move more traffic than you therefore our task is harder and yours is easier and less important" blight that plays exactly into the hands of an upper management regime more than willing to divide and rule.
Personally I've always been dead against the banding system, vociferously so. And that would continue to be the case regardless of whether I happened to find myself at the top or bottom of it.
Perhaps I'm stupid in believing that if someone does the same job as me, for the same company, using the same skills, after going through the same training - then they deserve the same treatment and pay and benefits as I.
Perhaps the culture of greed and personal gain really has replaced any form of comradeship and togetherness. If so, I fear my friends that eventually, we're all doomed......
And yes, we're all mobile grades. But it's ludicrous to suggest that a move to Scotland, where the very basics of modern life (education, legal system, even political system) differ from the point of origin. That is hardly comparable to a move down a short stretch of motorway along which spouses and employees can happily commute without the need for a complete life change for the whole family.
And lest we not forget, it was a move and a policy undertaken without any sort of consultation with any of the staff it may affect.
So yeah, by the book, we're all mobile and should go where we're put. But what about treating employees with some reason and respect.
I wonder what would have happend if, instead of moving from West Drayton to LACC, the move would have been to a new Scottish super-centre - entirely hypothetical of course (and unlikely too, naturally). But just supposing if....
I suppose now those of you insisting our move to NPC is no different than your move to LACC will insist you would have skipped along nicely without a single gripe or care in the World....
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Would you have at least tried to do something though MancBoy - even if it was just to get your voice heard and concerns addressed by management?
I'm not having that you would have just said "yeah fine" and got on with it without a single moan or protestation. Come now - I look daft, but I'm not stupid
I agree with a lot of what you've posted previously in this topic, absolutely. And even though I'm MACC based, I can see most things from both sides, much to the chagrin of some of my less understanding colleagues on both sides of the unit divide.
But I can't for the life of me figure out why you, and quite a few of your colleagues take such umbridge seemingly at those of us at MACC being a little upset at the situation that confronts us - compulsory or not.
It doesn't affect how much money you'll be paid, or which band you're in after all, does it. 
A bit of support, at least publicly, from ones colleagues would be really nice from time to time.....even if it's just in the interests of begrudged karma.
I'm not having that you would have just said "yeah fine" and got on with it without a single moan or protestation. Come now - I look daft, but I'm not stupid
I agree with a lot of what you've posted previously in this topic, absolutely. And even though I'm MACC based, I can see most things from both sides, much to the chagrin of some of my less understanding colleagues on both sides of the unit divide.
But I can't for the life of me figure out why you, and quite a few of your colleagues take such umbridge seemingly at those of us at MACC being a little upset at the situation that confronts us - compulsory or not.
It doesn't affect how much money you'll be paid, or which band you're in after all, does it.
A bit of support, at least publicly, from ones colleagues would be really nice from time to time.....even if it's just in the interests of begrudged karma.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Mate, thanks for your kind words.
I, like many others, have been shafted by this company in one way or another.
Several years ago me and 4 of my colleagues were selected, one per watch, to transfer into AC from TC, where we were all valid, in order to help their staff shortages at the time.
Yes, it wasn't exactly a move of several hundred miles, but we effectively had our validations cancelled there and then and were forced to revalidate on completely new sectors with completely different styles of controlling from that which we were used to in TC. Plus, we were also given the incentive that if we failed to validate there would be no chance of going back into TC, as is normal with postings you go back to whence you came, so we could have ended up anywhere in NATS. Just ask Mr Brady at your gaff, he was one of the five.
So you see, I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted for not being on a working group, the excuse I was given by my then watch manager why I was selected.
I, like many others, have been shafted by this company in one way or another.
Several years ago me and 4 of my colleagues were selected, one per watch, to transfer into AC from TC, where we were all valid, in order to help their staff shortages at the time.
Yes, it wasn't exactly a move of several hundred miles, but we effectively had our validations cancelled there and then and were forced to revalidate on completely new sectors with completely different styles of controlling from that which we were used to in TC. Plus, we were also given the incentive that if we failed to validate there would be no chance of going back into TC, as is normal with postings you go back to whence you came, so we could have ended up anywhere in NATS. Just ask Mr Brady at your gaff, he was one of the five.
So you see, I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted for not being on a working group, the excuse I was given by my then watch manager why I was selected.
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Manc Boy
I, like many others, have been shafted by this company in one way or another.
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Manc Boy
When we move to NPC we will also lose some of our validations to revalidate on reworked sectorisations.If we fail, MACC is gone-we may end up workmates-maybe that's a route to band 5!
When we move to NPC we will also lose some of our validations to revalidate on reworked sectorisations.If we fail, MACC is gone-we may end up workmates-maybe that's a route to band 5!
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it appears that our GM agrees that the banding issue which adds to our woes is completely unreasonable and he agrees with our cause! And he now validates the complexity figures. whats going on?.next thing you know they'll be moving us south...not.
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Having skim read through 'the document' I see that it was published in april 2006 but the actual traffic samples were from 2003!
whatever statistics are banded about does not get away from the facvt that swanwick and tc ARE much busier
More flights per centre or more flights per person. Who would you say is the busier?
Why exactly am I small minded then, ayr?
I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted
As for shrinking traffic figures, could it possibly be the TTM's work protecting an understaffed unit? Think about it! Less controllers less capacity.
It isn't rocket science you know!
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And let's not forget please that, although our numbers have actually decreased, our airspace has kept increasing with the additional sectors and subsequent traffic which we've taken off LACC; and yet we still suffer from the nonsense of capping further traffic into our airspace. I think sometimes it's forgotten that we can look up too as well as down, often wondering why there's capping at all.
And...our managers believe that we'll lose up to 10 bods with the move to NPC and that's including retirees etc. We have our own list of actual names with firm plans...we're up to the mid 30's already!
It's all good!
And...our managers believe that we'll lose up to 10 bods with the move to NPC and that's including retirees etc. We have our own list of actual names with firm plans...we're up to the mid 30's already!
It's all good!
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I think what's sometimes forgotten in all of this is that MACC in effect combines the function of two units, it performs a TMA function working a/c from departure (about 2500ft) all the way up to an AC function at FL285 and for descending a/c up to FL300+. It means all controllers combine both a TC and an AC function at the same time. That's where our complexity comes from. It's not just cruising trfc or climbing and descending TMA trfc...it's both at the same time sometimes on a 100 mile range. We don't want to belittle any other unit's...we just don't want them to do it to us.
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"I think what's sometimes forgotten in all of this is that MACC in effect combines the function of two units, it performs a TMA function working a/c from departure (about 2500ft) all the way up to an AC function at FL285 and for descending a/c up to FL300+. It means all controllers combine both a TC and an AC function at the same time. "
Doesn't Scoacc do the same?
Doesn't Scoacc do the same?