ICAO Level 4 Grandfather Rights for ATCO's
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Insurance
Well.
They would drop you.
Insurance wise that is.
Unable to comply with the law = Unable to insure.
Grandfather rights.
No thanks.
If the English are testing all their native English speakers, which they are.
Then how can a (non-native English speaking) european land get away with no testing before the 5th March 2008 deadline ?????
They would drop you.
Insurance wise that is.
Unable to comply with the law = Unable to insure.
Grandfather rights.
No thanks.
If the English are testing all their native English speakers, which they are.
Then how can a (non-native English speaking) european land get away with no testing before the 5th March 2008 deadline ?????
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Is it the Swiss with the GrandFather ?
Was at a pilots meeting in Germany 2 weeks ago and I think someone said that the Swiss Federal Air Office in Berne was going to grant grand father rights to just about all Swiss pilots and controllers because they had not done anything about organising a test in time. Is this a non-English speaking nation ignoring an ICAO standard dead line? Well I think they should be more safety alert and follow ICAO standards and implementation dates closely, if not to the letter, following recent history.
There are tests out there to use, they should select a valid proven test and use it before time, March 2008; aircraft separation or there insurance runs out.
Who insures the Swiss?
There are tests out there to use, they should select a valid proven test and use it before time, March 2008; aircraft separation or there insurance runs out.
Who insures the Swiss?
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If I got it right, in France, we'll get a mix of grand-father's rights and test.
We should all be tested for English (don't know when), but all ATCOs working in France will get a level 6 in French (grand-father).
Also starting next year, all students training for ATCO will have to justify of both ICAO level 4 in English and 4(ACC) or 5 (APP) in French to be able to work in France.
However, you should keep in mind that the problem is not in testing all ATCOs, and saying "well, guys, if you don't get a 4+, you can't work..."
The problem is: What do you do if in 1 country, let's say 30% of your ATCOs don't make the cut? How will do the job?
PS: As Farrell said, ICAO level is not only a question of plain language, but also of using ST phraseology. On that topic (at least) all ATCOs should be tested. (and maybe on pronunciation as well)
We should all be tested for English (don't know when), but all ATCOs working in France will get a level 6 in French (grand-father).
Also starting next year, all students training for ATCO will have to justify of both ICAO level 4 in English and 4(ACC) or 5 (APP) in French to be able to work in France.
However, you should keep in mind that the problem is not in testing all ATCOs, and saying "well, guys, if you don't get a 4+, you can't work..."
The problem is: What do you do if in 1 country, let's say 30% of your ATCOs don't make the cut? How will do the job?
PS: As Farrell said, ICAO level is not only a question of plain language, but also of using ST phraseology. On that topic (at least) all ATCOs should be tested. (and maybe on pronunciation as well)
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but all ATCOs working in France will get a level 6 in French (grand-father).
What do you do if in 1 country, let's say 30% of your ATCOs don't make the cut? How will do the job?
The whole idea behind this is to impose a constant standard - something which allowing grandfather rights will not achieve. Even native English speakers are being tested - so why should non-native english speakers be excused?
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Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
Thereby negating the reasons for the introduction - what a farce!
That means I could use plain language and still be understood, whereas you have (or I, when using "English") to stick with proper Std phraseology. (but I'm not sure I got your remark correctly
)As for the "constant standard", let's not forget that the standard language in aeronautic is not English... but phraseology, which is not exactly the same.
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dunadan - that still doesn't excuse non testing. Giving someone "level 6" without researching the individuals capabilities, and indeed, whether they actually ATTAIN the ICAO standard, still makes a mockery of the situation.
Yes - phraseology is more important than actual language skills, but there is more to it than that. Enunciation needs to be tested, along with how the individuals accent interracts with external comprehension of a transmission.
Again - THERE IS NO EXCUSE, THERE SHOULD BE NO GRANDFATHER RIGHTS
Yes - phraseology is more important than actual language skills, but there is more to it than that. Enunciation needs to be tested, along with how the individuals accent interracts with external comprehension of a transmission.
Again - THERE IS NO EXCUSE, THERE SHOULD BE NO GRANDFATHER RIGHTS
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me using French is that chances are that I will do so with a native French speaking crew, when you do so with non native crews. The risk of misunderstanding is not the same at all.
The Cooler King
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"The difference between you using English in R/T and me using French is that chances are that I will do so with a native French speaking crew, when you do so with non native crews. The risk of misunderstanding is not the same at all."
This is a totally different argument and one that has caused much heated debate amongst crews.
When you as a native French speaker are transmitting to a native French speaking crew, the chance for a misunderstanding is indeed very low......however, when you do this at an international airport where there are other crews who do not speak French, then you are denying them the "big picture".
They have no idea what is going on around them - apart from any visual cues that they pick up themselves.
The whole idea behind this Aviation English directive is that there is one common language worldwide for aviation use.
There will come a time when you will not be allowed to use French at your airports - even with French crews and this will come very soon. The same goes for airports all over the world.
It's all about situational awareness. One language + One system of comms = A safer working environment for us all.
This is a totally different argument and one that has caused much heated debate amongst crews.
When you as a native French speaker are transmitting to a native French speaking crew, the chance for a misunderstanding is indeed very low......however, when you do this at an international airport where there are other crews who do not speak French, then you are denying them the "big picture".
They have no idea what is going on around them - apart from any visual cues that they pick up themselves.
The whole idea behind this Aviation English directive is that there is one common language worldwide for aviation use.
There will come a time when you will not be allowed to use French at your airports - even with French crews and this will come very soon. The same goes for airports all over the world.
It's all about situational awareness. One language + One system of comms = A safer working environment for us all.
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Well guys, I'm sorry to say that I don't know any text stating that only English should be used at international airports throughout the world.
Also I'm not an expert in ICAO reference book, as far as I know R/T can be conducted in any of the officials languages of that organisation.
English is just the "default language" to be used if both parties involved in the R/T do not share the same.
In France for example, if a pilot calls me in French, I have to answer him in French by law (except if his language level is very poor). If he calls me in English, I have to answer in English. I, as an ATCO, have no choice on that matter.
By the way AirNoServicesAustralia, even when working in an international airport in France, I get to speak with "small VFR traffic" on the same frequency as the "big IFR international liners". As some (most?) of those pilots are not able to use English in R/T (why should they if they fly only in France?), what should we do? That is, apart from restricting all the aeronautic industry to English natives?
As for the famous "big picture", I'd rather have crews doing what I tell them to do without that picture, than crews who think they have that big picture and decide by themselves to "amend" their clearances. I never witnessed any incident in which not using a common language was an element of the problem. On the other hand, I see nearly everyday some crews who decide by themselves to reduce speed under vectors without even saying so
, causing quite a bit of stress where there should be none. And it's just an example.
Again, I'm not denying the interest of "the big picture", but let's face it, even in a "single language" environment it's very difficult for a crew to get that picture if they are not based on that airport.
What is important is that we (ATCOs) get that picture.
Also I'm not an expert in ICAO reference book, as far as I know R/T can be conducted in any of the officials languages of that organisation.
English is just the "default language" to be used if both parties involved in the R/T do not share the same.
In France for example, if a pilot calls me in French, I have to answer him in French by law (except if his language level is very poor). If he calls me in English, I have to answer in English. I, as an ATCO, have no choice on that matter.
By the way AirNoServicesAustralia, even when working in an international airport in France, I get to speak with "small VFR traffic" on the same frequency as the "big IFR international liners". As some (most?) of those pilots are not able to use English in R/T (why should they if they fly only in France?), what should we do? That is, apart from restricting all the aeronautic industry to English natives?
As for the famous "big picture", I'd rather have crews doing what I tell them to do without that picture, than crews who think they have that big picture and decide by themselves to "amend" their clearances. I never witnessed any incident in which not using a common language was an element of the problem. On the other hand, I see nearly everyday some crews who decide by themselves to reduce speed under vectors without even saying so
, causing quite a bit of stress where there should be none. And it's just an example.Again, I'm not denying the interest of "the big picture", but let's face it, even in a "single language" environment it's very difficult for a crew to get that picture if they are not based on that airport.
What is important is that we (ATCOs) get that picture.
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picture?
Howdy,
so what will happen/ is happening now with datalink? People turning and climbing/descending without anybody hearing (almost, still some readbacks). Difficult to keep track of that for the crews...I don't read anybody making a problem of it. So what is exactly the difference here with speaking another language?
Hey, before you shoot, I do not think using two languages is very wise when the A/C need to know about each other...but when they don't need to know about each other: who cares? (yes I know you do, don't cha?) I mean...do they really care that much they changed freq or squawk? I don't think so. Now if I had somebody lined for take off on my single runway airport and had an A/C on approach I'd use one language (that both crews and I understand fully...whichever that may be-like it or not).
And as dunadan06 says, chatter on the freq gives crews a very limited picture - I think some crews don't even fully understand TCAS yet and try to go about judging the lateral whereabouts of nearby traffic on their TCAS' display!! got it just this week -.
Regarding native speakers getting level 6 on their own language...well, d'uh, deffinition of ICAO level 6 actually says something like "the person has a native knowledge of the language and fully understands and is able to fully use blablabla" so I think it just makes sense -same as if english people would get a level 6 in english; I don't even dream to get that as it's not my mother tongue-.
So, one language if situation deems it, yes. Which one? The best suited for the situation.
A.
(fire in the hole)
so what will happen/ is happening now with datalink? People turning and climbing/descending without anybody hearing (almost, still some readbacks). Difficult to keep track of that for the crews...I don't read anybody making a problem of it. So what is exactly the difference here with speaking another language?
Hey, before you shoot, I do not think using two languages is very wise when the A/C need to know about each other...but when they don't need to know about each other: who cares? (yes I know you do, don't cha?) I mean...do they really care that much they changed freq or squawk? I don't think so. Now if I had somebody lined for take off on my single runway airport and had an A/C on approach I'd use one language (that both crews and I understand fully...whichever that may be-like it or not).
And as dunadan06 says, chatter on the freq gives crews a very limited picture - I think some crews don't even fully understand TCAS yet and try to go about judging the lateral whereabouts of nearby traffic on their TCAS' display!! got it just this week -.
Regarding native speakers getting level 6 on their own language...well, d'uh, deffinition of ICAO level 6 actually says something like "the person has a native knowledge of the language and fully understands and is able to fully use blablabla" so I think it just makes sense -same as if english people would get a level 6 in english; I don't even dream to get that as it's not my mother tongue-.
So, one language if situation deems it, yes. Which one? The best suited for the situation.
A.
(fire in the hole)
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Nothing of a kind in Serbia. The requirement is well known for more then a year, so English lessons have been organised, by our association, for the last 5-6 months. Next week we shall have an official test ,organised by the agency, to give individual level of knowledge to all of us, with a valid ratings, in both APP and ACC Belgrade. The results will be used to point out the areas of improvement, for every individual involved, in order to achieve the required level. Hopefully, we'll be there (level 4+) on time.
I am from TURKIYE and ACC/APP ATCO. We will be tested for ICAO English language. There are a lot of rumour about that test so we have not be notified about test date. I wonder How was your exam. Are there any ATCOS who failed the exam??.
Regards
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oturansincap
Hi,
It was only a placement test. It gave us (licence holders) the most needed information abot "where we are" when it comes to English language. Afterwards, individual interviews were conducted, by the English teachers, from the training center, pointing out whether the required level was reached and if not, what should be improved. We are expecting official PELA testing to start after the new year in order to meet the ICAO requirement (March 2008).
J.
Hi,
It was only a placement test. It gave us (licence holders) the most needed information abot "where we are" when it comes to English language. Afterwards, individual interviews were conducted, by the English teachers, from the training center, pointing out whether the required level was reached and if not, what should be improved. We are expecting official PELA testing to start after the new year in order to meet the ICAO requirement (March 2008).
J.
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Hi,
It was only a placement test. It gave us (licence holders) the most needed information abot "where we are" when it comes to English language. Afterwards, individual interviews were conducted, by the English teachers, from the training center, pointing out whether the required level was reached and if not, what should be improved. We are expecting official PELA testing to start after the new year in order to meet the ICAO requirement (March 2008).
J.
It was only a placement test. It gave us (licence holders) the most needed information abot "where we are" when it comes to English language. Afterwards, individual interviews were conducted, by the English teachers, from the training center, pointing out whether the required level was reached and if not, what should be improved. We are expecting official PELA testing to start after the new year in order to meet the ICAO requirement (March 2008).
J.
We were also tested in order to define our english level. In TURKIYE all ATCOS have been going to UK,Bournemouth MLS College ,according to the our english knowledge level. Iwas tested for PELA about 4 years before. Actually PELA exam was easy for grammmer but I think testing for the unreal emergency Radio comminication was a bit hard but not so hard.You can find the PELA example exam in internet, so you may learn what kind of exam it is.
Regards
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I´m a native Spanish speaker, born in Spain, Madrid. Have been working with air traffic controllers for 30 years in this country and I can assure that the vast majority of them comply with the operational english specifications. This new requirement from ICAO is nevertheless welcome as it ensures a new update of their ability to speak and, above all understand, plain and aeronautical or aviation english, as it is mentioned now. None the less you respectable and valued English natives have to take in account that Icao´s level four is almost very near to turn bilingual the person who controls it. And English language for a latin (Spanish, French, Italian) speaker is really a difficult one to master, as it alters all the linguistic and gramatical rules acquired during childhood. I suppose the same happens to you with latin languages, but your Spanish or French is not on the stake, and by the way your profession. Thanks for reading.
Take me downwind
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Not just Europe
Almost everybody ignored these standards. In Europe ATCs have it a bit harder. I also read that in the EU ATCs will be operational at level 5. I am looking for the doument that confirms this.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ians/publ...tumn_2007.html
http://elpac.info/
Best,
PE
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ians/publ...tumn_2007.html
http://elpac.info/
Best,
PE
