Confused?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Scotland
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Conjam, this is a popular misconception about SIDs. The complexity of our airspace, particularly in TMA environments, is such that separation will not be guaranteed by relying on SIDs alone. SIDs are designed to get aircraft airborne in a standard way, without the need for individual clearances (and all that this implies). So although separation on a SID is initially assured, intervention after departure is often required to maintain it.
We are always aware of the possibility of radio failure and in these circumstances will co-ordinate with other sectors and units to keep traffic separated.
We are always aware of the possibility of radio failure and in these circumstances will co-ordinate with other sectors and units to keep traffic separated.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Wilmslow and North Yorks
Age: 53
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Exactly what i was getting at, if you level at the SID's max level seperation will be assured, it might mean you guys need to co-ordinate more, but it should be safe.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Yes ComJam, but we do not have the capacity to co-ordinate against every single departure that does not check in before levelling off.
The system capacities (Target Sector Flows) are designed to tolerate unforseen circumstances, but clearly are not designed to tolerate every departure not checking in!
As a bit of "cockpit groupie" I am well aware of the high workloads immediately after departure, so by all means delay the initial call until a convenient moment in the clean up-schedule, just don't leave it too long!
The system capacities (Target Sector Flows) are designed to tolerate unforseen circumstances, but clearly are not designed to tolerate every departure not checking in!
As a bit of "cockpit groupie" I am well aware of the high workloads immediately after departure, so by all means delay the initial call until a convenient moment in the clean up-schedule, just don't leave it too long!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: solent-on-sea
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Comjam, as an example, if you level at the SIDs final level on a heathrow dover departure, you will meet a gatwick dover departure at it's final level just past Detling. Similarly, SAM LL and KK's meet, as do LL CPTs and KK Kenets and so on for nearly all same direction sids from adjacent airfields.. Also, not all sids are seperated from the final approach of the airport they leave from, so although it might work in theory, the London TMA doesn't quite fit that theory.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Guys, that's fine and all perfectly well understood. I was merely trying to point out that if, for whatever reason, we were to be unable to check-in on the departure frequency quickly enough to be issued a higher level, it will not directly bring us into conflict with something else........because you will do your job and co-ordinate it. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that the system should be designed to cope with no-one checking in.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Generally, you should be fine for a while at least. Worst case in the London TMA I can think of would be a DVR dep off 26L at KK, which if you just fly it loses separation against the approach after about (please don't jump down my neck I said about) 14 track miles depending how accurately you fly it, and if of course there's actually anything on the approach.
