Holding Helicopters
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Holding Helicopters
It is alleged that an R22 helicopter was asked to hold by hovering on base leg at approx 700ft agl and the low time student all but lost control.
Is it felt that the ADI ATCO should have had had the knowledge to know that this was potentially hazardous.?
Is it felt that the ADI ATCO should have had had the knowledge to know that this was potentially hazardous.?
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This is going to happen more and more with the lack of background knowledge new ATCO's have.
It's a helicopter - they think they can hover (That's what helicopters do after all). They're not an R22 pilot, so they're not going to know that you still need forward speed to remain stable. It's not required knowledge (in many people's eyes)
Hopefully the whole unit will learn from this, not just the ATCO concerned - thankfully they're not learning via an AAIB enquiry.
It's a helicopter - they think they can hover (That's what helicopters do after all). They're not an R22 pilot, so they're not going to know that you still need forward speed to remain stable. It's not required knowledge (in many people's eyes)
Hopefully the whole unit will learn from this, not just the ATCO concerned - thankfully they're not learning via an AAIB enquiry.
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Fair enough Chilli and I fully agree with the comment on low time ATCO's.
At an airfield where holding is common for vortex is it not encumbant on the helicopter instructor to ensure that the student has the where with all to say no I cant do that,
A bit chicken and eggish I suppose.
At an airfield where holding is common for vortex is it not encumbant on the helicopter instructor to ensure that the student has the where with all to say no I cant do that,
A bit chicken and eggish I suppose.
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Chilli, hope this doesn't mean you won't let me hover when you ask me to hold on base leg? 
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ST - depends on your definition of "hold"
When we say hold (and I do it to rotary traffic 20 times a day!) we kind of expect you to fly in smallish slow circles - for the obvious safety reason..... But also means that when we say cross behind the lander etc, you will already have some airspeed. (I mean, I let you practice that BUR for 10 minutes the other day!!!!!
)
CM is right though - aircraft awareness is decreasing in ATCOs.
I guess you can part blame the instructor in a way - for not telling his student how to hold... and to say if you can't.
When we say hold (and I do it to rotary traffic 20 times a day!) we kind of expect you to fly in smallish slow circles - for the obvious safety reason..... But also means that when we say cross behind the lander etc, you will already have some airspeed. (I mean, I let you practice that BUR for 10 minutes the other day!!!!!
)CM is right though - aircraft awareness is decreasing in ATCOs.
I guess you can part blame the instructor in a way - for not telling his student how to hold... and to say if you can't.
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Talking to some of the ATC guys at STN the other day.
Their reasoning behind rotary phobia was that the college uses helicopters as 'problems' if they want to upset a student's flow. After a bit this becomes understandably deep-rooted and the knee jerk reaction is rather negative.
We took most of an ATC watch for a trip the other week to keep the education going - you should have seen the expressions when I showed them the London Heliroutes map.
Their reasoning behind rotary phobia was that the college uses helicopters as 'problems' if they want to upset a student's flow. After a bit this becomes understandably deep-rooted and the knee jerk reaction is rather negative.
We took most of an ATC watch for a trip the other week to keep the education going - you should have seen the expressions when I showed them the London Heliroutes map.
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AlanM
You said
- for the obvious safety reason..
This is the issue why should it be obvious... see the info on what is happening at the ATC college. The current and future shortage of grumpy old, experienced ATCOs IMHO will not stand up to a formal Safety Assessment as every body cannot be expected to know everything( except me of course) and eventually the gap will lead to a serious incident.
You said
- for the obvious safety reason..
This is the issue why should it be obvious... see the info on what is happening at the ATC college. The current and future shortage of grumpy old, experienced ATCOs IMHO will not stand up to a formal Safety Assessment as every body cannot be expected to know everything( except me of course) and eventually the gap will lead to a serious incident.
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There is - but the student / newly qualified PPL mindset normally hasn't developed that far. That's something else you have to be aware of when dealing pilots of differing qualifications / experience.
(For light GA we have the pilots licence types on the strip, obtained when they book out - can be helpful)
(For light GA we have the pilots licence types on the strip, obtained when they book out - can be helpful)
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Grumpy - Sorry I meant "obvious" to ShyTorque...
I think things are changing at the college of knowledge.
Not sure I like the idea of "Pilots type of licence" on the strip. That could lull you into a false sense of security.... I have seen some KingAirs with CPLs flying do the most bizarre things.
If someone is on a First solo/First XC then nice to know.
It is incumbent on the older experienced breed to pass on that knowledge and experience.
I think things are changing at the college of knowledge.
Not sure I like the idea of "Pilots type of licence" on the strip. That could lull you into a false sense of security.... I have seen some KingAirs with CPLs flying do the most bizarre things.
If someone is on a First solo/First XC then nice to know.
It is incumbent on the older experienced breed to pass on that knowledge and experience.
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An ATCO cannot be expected to know the performance limitations / handling characteristics of every type of aircraft. However, the pilot of an aircraft should have a great understanding of their aircrafts limitation / handling characteristics. If given an instruction that would place the aircraft outside the aircrafts or the pilots limitations then it is up to the pilot to say that they cannot comply with the instruction, no matter how experienced they are they should know when to say no.
The lack of new ATCOs aircraft knowledge is a problem, but they will learn given time. Give them a chance, we all have to learn.
The lack of new ATCOs aircraft knowledge is a problem, but they will learn given time. Give them a chance, we all have to learn.
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Lobby - it isn't a dig at the ATCO - a dig really at the lack of emphasis on aircraft performance and basic knowledge that has arisen. Yes we all have to learn (and never stop) but the point is that trainees used to be afforded a wider grounding of this and other issues BEFORE plugging in.
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Helicopter holds
I agree with the probable (serious) risks inherent in asking helicopters to "hover." Airfields at which helicopters need to hold for traffic reasons ought to establish better procedures for handling them. These might, for instance, involve establishing relatively small "racetrack" holding positions etc. Why don't these airfields work with the pilots to produce better procedures?
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Lobby - I think an ATCO should have a good idea of the general handling & perf characteristics. Our mantra is "safe, orderly & expeditious" and while you can have the first, you can't get the second or third without the knowledge. You don't need to know the V(at) of a half-laden 744 but you should know that helo's are safer in a small orbit with some forward speed than in a hover.
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There does seem to be a divide amongst ATCOs; those who understand helicopters, and are aware of their limitations and strengths - and those who don't understand.
For example, modern twin helis can fly at much higher speed than some realise. I have been asked to "make best speed" during an ILS, due to one behind, only to be asked to slow down again shortly after because I was catching up the B767 ahead! If I get some advance warning about fitting in with traffic on rejoin I can always slow right down to 30kts (but 55kts IMC, we don't like too slow there as we need visual reference to hover and the autopilot/coupling has minimum speed limits) or we can accelerate to 160kts. Much nicer for the pax; one thing that makes pax sick is those slow, tight orbits!
I often don't need to go to the runway to depart VFR, only a clear area (over a reasonable surface in case of a low-speed abort and re-landing due to a single engine failure before TDP - less than 30 kts IAS on my present type).
I am quite happy to land on a runway with one ahead, or even to side-step onto a taxyway, or grassed area on finals.
What I really can't do is to follow complicated and detailed, unfamiliar taxy ATC instructions if I'm in the hover, at least not if it involves reading a plate! My aircraft starts flying as soon as the rotors turn and keeps on flying until they've stopped - I need both hands on the controls to keep it all in shape. "Take the first right & second left on the taxiway, hold at S" etc. is far easier for us, thanks. I can't safely let go of the controls for more than a second or so - even to ground taxy. I can just about change a tx ponder code in the hover, but many pilots can't, depending on heli type. To give me a complicated clearance or change after I've lifted might cause me a problem as I have to fly the a/c with both hands, read it back, set the codes and remember the rest of it. I might already be coping with a crosswind or downwind, even whilst taxying.
Similarly, I have problems with a downwind touchdown if expediting to vacate a runway - to do that I need to raise the nose hard and I can easily touch the tail on the ground / hit the tail rotor as it sits close to the ground already.
Especially when departing into IMC / IFR, my initial workload will be as high, if not higher, than on many fixed wing aircraft (and I'm single pilot IFR). Same on short finals, especially if on an instrument approach. I can't understand why some ATCOs see fit to talk to us on the radio at these critical times when they wouldn't do it to a fixed wing pilot. We need a "sterile cockpit" as much as they do, we might be flying to Performance profile numbers at this stage, with regard to speed and rate of descent.
We heli pilots with an IR keep current but we aren't routinely flying the ILS so we might not be as slick at it as the jet boys are. If I do ask for an ILS it's usually because I really need it, so be gentle - please!
However, when joining VFR I can often fly very close behind a preceding aircraft at what seem like suicidal wake/vortex spacing on finals because I don't need to fly through the same air as he does (is one rotor span from his tailfin OK?), I'm above his wake on a normal approach and can offset on his upwind side, to get further, lateral spacing. You possibly noticed that when I'm cleared to land on a runway having been "number 2", I'm often well laterally offset and/or very steep, until I'm past him, or past his touchdown point - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
For example, modern twin helis can fly at much higher speed than some realise. I have been asked to "make best speed" during an ILS, due to one behind, only to be asked to slow down again shortly after because I was catching up the B767 ahead! If I get some advance warning about fitting in with traffic on rejoin I can always slow right down to 30kts (but 55kts IMC, we don't like too slow there as we need visual reference to hover and the autopilot/coupling has minimum speed limits) or we can accelerate to 160kts. Much nicer for the pax; one thing that makes pax sick is those slow, tight orbits!
I often don't need to go to the runway to depart VFR, only a clear area (over a reasonable surface in case of a low-speed abort and re-landing due to a single engine failure before TDP - less than 30 kts IAS on my present type).
I am quite happy to land on a runway with one ahead, or even to side-step onto a taxyway, or grassed area on finals.
What I really can't do is to follow complicated and detailed, unfamiliar taxy ATC instructions if I'm in the hover, at least not if it involves reading a plate! My aircraft starts flying as soon as the rotors turn and keeps on flying until they've stopped - I need both hands on the controls to keep it all in shape. "Take the first right & second left on the taxiway, hold at S" etc. is far easier for us, thanks. I can't safely let go of the controls for more than a second or so - even to ground taxy. I can just about change a tx ponder code in the hover, but many pilots can't, depending on heli type. To give me a complicated clearance or change after I've lifted might cause me a problem as I have to fly the a/c with both hands, read it back, set the codes and remember the rest of it. I might already be coping with a crosswind or downwind, even whilst taxying.
Similarly, I have problems with a downwind touchdown if expediting to vacate a runway - to do that I need to raise the nose hard and I can easily touch the tail on the ground / hit the tail rotor as it sits close to the ground already.
Especially when departing into IMC / IFR, my initial workload will be as high, if not higher, than on many fixed wing aircraft (and I'm single pilot IFR). Same on short finals, especially if on an instrument approach. I can't understand why some ATCOs see fit to talk to us on the radio at these critical times when they wouldn't do it to a fixed wing pilot. We need a "sterile cockpit" as much as they do, we might be flying to Performance profile numbers at this stage, with regard to speed and rate of descent.
We heli pilots with an IR keep current but we aren't routinely flying the ILS so we might not be as slick at it as the jet boys are. If I do ask for an ILS it's usually because I really need it, so be gentle - please!
However, when joining VFR I can often fly very close behind a preceding aircraft at what seem like suicidal wake/vortex spacing on finals because I don't need to fly through the same air as he does (is one rotor span from his tailfin OK?), I'm above his wake on a normal approach and can offset on his upwind side, to get further, lateral spacing. You possibly noticed that when I'm cleared to land on a runway having been "number 2", I'm often well laterally offset and/or very steep, until I'm past him, or past his touchdown point - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it
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I had absolutely no idea about this, so thank you for educating me in this thread!
I can never recall being taught this, we were always given the impression that helicopters can hover without moving.
Perhaps this should be a requirement to learn before something like this happens again? (I wouldn't be suprised if it does become a requirement in light of this incident)
I can never recall being taught this, we were always given the impression that helicopters can hover without moving.
Perhaps this should be a requirement to learn before something like this happens again? (I wouldn't be suprised if it does become a requirement in light of this incident)
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I work at a helicopter charter company based at a major international airport - we have had a couple of our piltos visit the tower to say g'day and ask a few questions - trying to organise a few ATCers to get on a few of our flights so they can see what a heli can and can't do!
A little education both ways can't hurt.
A little education both ways can't hurt.
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ALthough I have a good understanding of what to expect from low hour students, I would never expect an instructer to let a student go solo without being able to cope with holding in any particular location or coping with an unusual situation.
The ATCO is clearly not at fault here, it's partially the student but largely the failure of instructor to ensure that the pilot can cope.
To put it in very very simple terms, if the student hasn't been taught to shout for help at the earliest opportunity, the training establishment should be nailed to the wall and beaten extremely severely.
The ATCO is clearly not at fault here, it's partially the student but largely the failure of instructor to ensure that the pilot can cope.
To put it in very very simple terms, if the student hasn't been taught to shout for help at the earliest opportunity, the training establishment should be nailed to the wall and beaten extremely severely.