Holding Helicopters
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Seems to me the problem possibly occurred because the ATCO incorrectly said "hover" when "hold" would have been better; the student incorrectly tried to comply with an instruction of which he was incapable.
Mistakes made on both sides, lessons learned by those involved and hopefully everyone reading this thread (and the forthcoming MOR report). Hopefully it won't happen again due to increased awareness.
Some helicopters (and pilots) can hover out of ground effect sometimes, depending on a number of things; such as aircraft all up mass, wind velocity, density altitude, pilot training and experience, how sharp he is on the day, availability of sufficient visual cues etc. Sometimes I might choose a hover over an orbit. However, ATC can't be expected to know; it's up to me to decide.
Regarding the requirement to orbit rather than hover to cross at LHR. I fully appreciate the reason of expediting the crossing by keeping some airspeed but often, ATC ask the pilot to confirm visual with a particular airliner on final approach (seldom the closest one) just as the airfield is behind due to the orbit (maybe I'm just unlucky). He can't see any airliners on finals, due to finals being completely out of his field of view!
"AirBland Airbus on finals at three miles" - they all look the same to most helicopter pilots, especially at that range. Until the pilot has it in sight and correctly identified, he cannot confirm so there will be a delay in answering, or a "Standby". ATC don't like delays in answering or confirmation.
On the other hand, if pilots were allowed to come to a safe hover, which must be the pilot's discretion, he can a) keep his orientation and retain the big picture of where the airliners are and b), he is in a position to immediately accelerate to the speed he would have been orbitting at. So it would probably make little difference in many cases.
In conclusion of this long diatribe, I think the pilot should be left to make his own decision on how to hold.
Mistakes made on both sides, lessons learned by those involved and hopefully everyone reading this thread (and the forthcoming MOR report). Hopefully it won't happen again due to increased awareness.
Some helicopters (and pilots) can hover out of ground effect sometimes, depending on a number of things; such as aircraft all up mass, wind velocity, density altitude, pilot training and experience, how sharp he is on the day, availability of sufficient visual cues etc. Sometimes I might choose a hover over an orbit. However, ATC can't be expected to know; it's up to me to decide.
Regarding the requirement to orbit rather than hover to cross at LHR. I fully appreciate the reason of expediting the crossing by keeping some airspeed but often, ATC ask the pilot to confirm visual with a particular airliner on final approach (seldom the closest one) just as the airfield is behind due to the orbit (maybe I'm just unlucky). He can't see any airliners on finals, due to finals being completely out of his field of view!
"AirBland Airbus on finals at three miles" - they all look the same to most helicopter pilots, especially at that range. Until the pilot has it in sight and correctly identified, he cannot confirm so there will be a delay in answering, or a "Standby". ATC don't like delays in answering or confirmation.
On the other hand, if pilots were allowed to come to a safe hover, which must be the pilot's discretion, he can a) keep his orientation and retain the big picture of where the airliners are and b), he is in a position to immediately accelerate to the speed he would have been orbitting at. So it would probably make little difference in many cases.
In conclusion of this long diatribe, I think the pilot should be left to make his own decision on how to hold.
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I wonder if it's got anything to do with the recent introduction of heli phraseology.Hold (position?) in the hover is now standard R/T,but applicable on runways etc.Might be a case of right phrase,wrong circumstance.If that's the case has the CAA introduced dodgy R/T?
We used the phrase''Lift into the hover,standby for departure'' for 30years and 1.5 million heli movements.Never went wrong,as heli pilots always use those terms.
now.
We used the phrase''Lift into the hover,standby for departure'' for 30years and 1.5 million heli movements.Never went wrong,as heli pilots always use those terms.
now.
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Regarding the requirement to orbit rather than hover to cross at LHR. I fully appreciate the reason of expediting the crossing by keeping some airspeed but often, ATC ask the pilot to confirm visual with a particular airliner on final approach (seldom the closest one) just as the airfield is behind due to the orbit (maybe I'm just unlucky). He can't see any airliners on finals, due to finals being completely out of his field of view!
True, which is why the phraseology used should be: "Report visual with xxxxx". If you are, say so. If you're not, say so too, and report when you are visual. Like you say, we do try and give you the maximum amount of notice so you can position to make an expeditious crossing. That might mean that we give you the trraffic when you're 'outbound'. If that's the case, we all expect you to say "Roger, looking.." etc etc.
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There is sadly an increasing lack of ATC appreciation of a/c perf in both f/w & rotary areas. We are getting more & more info from the airliners which is great, but losing it at the other end. CAA ATCOs used to get a PPL course as part of their training. By the time I went through it was down to 15hrs & if a cadet really didn't want to they were not compelled to do any flying. I believe it's even less now. It is even feasible to train as an ATCO & work your entire career without ever having seen an aircraft!
A controller cannot prescribe the traffic type or levels of experience of the pilots flying into his/her airfield & therefore really must have a good general understanding of the perf of all classes of a/c. Note I don't say "intimate" or "type". Just general helos, general sep. general mep, general t-p, general jet.
At the end of the day, though, lack of knowledge on any individual's part makes us all look daft. So pilots - take an ATCO flying & ATCOs - get the pilots into your tower! (Both sides should know the choccie biccy rule!)
ap
A controller cannot prescribe the traffic type or levels of experience of the pilots flying into his/her airfield & therefore really must have a good general understanding of the perf of all classes of a/c. Note I don't say "intimate" or "type". Just general helos, general sep. general mep, general t-p, general jet.
At the end of the day, though, lack of knowledge on any individual's part makes us all look daft. So pilots - take an ATCO flying & ATCOs - get the pilots into your tower! (Both sides should know the choccie biccy rule!)
ap
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Not sure what the use of BA sim time is,if you can't fly in first place.In the Old days
we did the full PPL,which was part of the course,and then some BA sim time at Braincrank.That was useful because we all could fly to a standard that we didn't crash that often.
Our local heli training school offers discount flights for ATC staff.It's well worth it,and I have a new respect for heli flying.At 40kts it's OK just like a funny version of fixed wing.Hovering
is like a balancing a Unicycle with a boiled egg on your head.
It is interesting that some of the students they get see the heli as a fashion item like the porsche etc.Some of the tales they have about the people they get it with lots of money to burn is hard to believe.
we did the full PPL,which was part of the course,and then some BA sim time at Braincrank.That was useful because we all could fly to a standard that we didn't crash that often.Our local heli training school offers discount flights for ATC staff.It's well worth it,and I have a new respect for heli flying.At 40kts it's OK just like a funny version of fixed wing.Hovering
is like a balancing a Unicycle with a boiled egg on your head.It is interesting that some of the students they get see the heli as a fashion item like the porsche etc.Some of the tales they have about the people they get it with lots of money to burn is hard to believe.
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Because those students going on to do things such as Clacton or Antrim at a centre, it was judged that time exposed to an IFR multi engine airliner type environment was more relevant than spending 15 hours circuit bashing in a Tomahawk at Wycombe.
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I don't think it's such a good idea.To fly an airliner simulator takes a lot of instrument flying which is advanced.Circuit bashing and learning the basics is good experience,because you are operating in a real traffic environment.Also to go solo is very rewarding.
When we did our BA sim,we could appreciate it more and were doing some advanced flying.Cat 3B approaches but we were the handling pilots.However unless we had done Instrument flying in a Cessna,it would have been more of a game than something of value.The basics to flying are the same for a Cessna or 747;but you learn the basics in a Cessna first.
When we did our BA sim,we could appreciate it more and were doing some advanced flying.Cat 3B approaches but we were the handling pilots.However unless we had done Instrument flying in a Cessna,it would have been more of a game than something of value.The basics to flying are the same for a Cessna or 747;but you learn the basics in a Cessna first.
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I think both are valid. The airliners have a lot more systems to go wrong which would not necessarily be obvious to a controller or necessitate declaring an emergency, yet would still impose a high workload or restrict the handling in some way, and this is best (and easiest) demonstrated by watching aircrew in a sim.
For the smaller, "simpler" a/c & helos experiencing it yourself is probably the best teacher.
I certainly hold that being a pilot makes me a better ATCO and vice versa.
ap
For the smaller, "simpler" a/c & helos experiencing it yourself is probably the best teacher.
I certainly hold that being a pilot makes me a better ATCO and vice versa.
ap
