Squawk IDENT only when requested: reference please?

[sabenaboy]

Hi,

Yesterday, when flying over Southern Europe, we received a new squawk when checking in with a new sector.
My first officer, very new to the job, dialed in the new code and then pushed the ident button without being asked by the ATCO.
I told him, in the most friendly way, that he should not ident without being asked by ATC.
However, I can't find any official document or rule that says that this is the correct procedure.
Therefore I am looking for an official document, preferably ICAO or JAR, that specifically says pilots should not IDENT without being asked first.

Your help would be appreciated.

Regards,
Sabenaboy

[Gary Lager]

Not every piece of good airmanship needs to be proscribed by a rule or regulation! How about pointing out to him that he has no way of knowing whether ATC just asked someone else to ident before he came on freq, and thereby could be causing confusion?

I'm sure ATCOs on here may have other reasons/examples, whether or not there is a 'rule' about it!

I suppose you are not operating the SSR in accordance with ATC instructions, perhaps that's the route to take?

[sabenaboy]

"good airmanship" can be discussed very easily.

He said he was told to do so by the cfi's in his flight school.

To avoid discussions I need an official reference.

[parkfell]

SSR

Try Manual of Air Traffic Services Part One - CAP 493
Seeing the code change occur confirms identification [I suspect the callsign conversion appeared], as does using the SPI feature the "ident".
Is it doing any harm? No. Was the CFI correct? No.
Post 0859 17 Apr : for "proscribed" read "prescribed" ?

[sabenaboy]

Thanks, Parkfell,

But I think this publication is intended for UK ATCO's, isn't it? (and therefore not very useful for non-uk pilots flying outside UK airspace.)

Any other relevant document?

Regards,
Sabenaboy

[Chilli Monster]

Sabenaboy, without a reference, maybe this is a good starting point for discussion:

Phraseology "Squawk 1234" or "Squawk 1234 with ident" ask him what was said?

Point out to your co (gently) that maybe second guessing ATC is a bad habit to get into. On that basis - maybe he should learn the following is a good idea for the rest of his career - "Do as we say, not what you think we mean"

[bookworm]

PANS-OPS (Doc 8168) Part III Section 3 Chapter 1

1.1.6 Pilots shall not SQUAWK IDENT unless requested by ATC.

[sabenaboy]

Thanks a lot, Bookworm, that's the information I was looking for.

I found it back in PAN-OPS doc 8168 VOL 1 Part VIII chapter 1

1.1.6 Pilots shall not SQUAWK IDENT unless requested by ATC.

You can download doc 8168 here: http://dcaa.slv.dk000/icaodocs/

[jovica]

Sabenaboy,
If the new code was given to you by Belgrade ACC or Zageb ACC (over the adriatic sea), it was done not for the identification purpose, but due ORCAM (European code allocation scheme) requirement. It means that you are identified with the code you are transmitting, however, we have to give you a new squawk in accordance to set of codes assigned to EUR region D.
The book says it all and this was just an attempt to give you one more (operational) reason why squawk ident is not needed.

[eastern wiseguy]

I saw a notam recently reminding crews not to squawk ident until asked.It seems to be time to either re-issue or reinforce it again as it is becoming more and more prevalent.

[Pierre Argh]

Activation of ident was once required to trigger Code/Callsign Conversion; hence plenty of requests and it became semi-automatic reaction.

However, IIRC Swanwick's new generation equipment does it automatically, so need requirement anymore, relegating Ident back to its original purpose... Identification.

Comments regarding warnings of mis-use should IMHO be sufficient to win "airmanship" arguement?

[anotherthing]

Pierre,

Hows life in your ever-changing uniform?

Don't know about Swanwick i.e. LACC, but at TC (civvy side) we still ident to activate certain flight plans - not all departures have the facility of doing this automatically.

That will continue to be the case when we move to Swanwick in Nov (or at a later date tbc!), using the same equipment near enough, but with a new fangled comms set up (if it works)

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by anotherthing

Don't know about Swanwick i.e. LACC, but at TC (civvy side) we still ident to activate certain flight plans - not all departures have the facility of doing this automatically.

'Tis NAS wot does it. The facility is called Auto-DM (Departure Message). When an aircraft gets airborne NAS is monitoring through the radar input. It will see an unpaired squawk and if NAS has allocated the code and its within a pre-defined area of the airfield NAS expects the aircraft to depart from then NAS will Auto DM it and pair it up.

That will continue to be the case when we move to Swanwick in Nov (or at a later date tbc!),

Have faith! The Chief Engineer tells me everything is wonderful, marvellous and perfick

but with a new fangled comms set up (if it works)

Might find out early next month, just hope its a bit sunnier in Oslo this time.

BD
p.s. Pairing can be 'forced' by having an aircraft squawk ident. Swanwick has the ability to pair a particular track to a particular flight plan but thats only in the Swanwick system and not seen NATS wide as NAS pairings are.