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First Contact with Brize

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First Contact with Brize

Old 12th Apr 2007, 09:15
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First Contact with Brize

Could someone in the RAF ATC community explain the mysteries of making contact with Brize for a Zone Transit?
Uniquely, for Brize alone, the Southern England & Wales Frequency Reference Card has a footnote "Brize Norton - Prefered initial contact frequency is 124.275".
On a couple of occasions recently I have called up on that frequency requesting a Zone Transit, only to get a snappy response "Call Brize Zone on 119.00". As that frequency is maked on the 500 mil chart, I would have done so had it not been for the card footnote.
On neither occasion did the the LARS operator on 124.275 ask me to "Pass your Message/Details", so I can't see the point of the apparently unnecessary initial call.
Nearby Bristol run a very efficient Zone Transit service using their 125.65 LARS/RAD/APP frequency. Why is Brize unique in having a seperate Zone frequency, and why the requirement to call their LARS first?
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Old 12th Apr 2007, 10:08
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Not knowing the vagaries of Brize ATC, but I think in this case the ATCO was working more than one frequency If, when we start to bandbox and are listening to more than one frequency, someone calls on what is not my main frequency, a quick flick of the switch and curt 'contact 118.5' and then flick back to the main freq. is the quickest way of doing things.
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Old 12th Apr 2007, 12:22
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When contacting Brize for transit, I've always used Brize Zone and have never encountered any problems. Odd that the frequency card and chart do not match. Unless it means that the initial call for inbound aircraft should use the suggested frequency?
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Old 12th Apr 2007, 13:36
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I don't know what the maps etc say but basically if you want LARS call 124.275. If you know you want a CTR transit call 119.0. If in doubt, try 124.275 first.
 
Old 12th Apr 2007, 21:48
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Agree with London Mil.

119.0 if you want to go in the zone

124.275 if you're staying out of it

If you're landing there and directors' manned I think its 133.750 (but unless you get given that by another ATC unit call zone to start with).
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Old 13th Apr 2007, 07:27
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Agree with all the common sense about who to call for what, but the published information isn't logical.
Why can't the RAF conform with civilian practices?
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Old 13th Apr 2007, 08:37
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Because they are military?
But seriously, I think you will find that because the RAF split the Zone task from the LARS task (and indeed the approach task) they have greater capacity for handling transit traffic. In my book that is an advantage.
PS. Not discrediting any civil unit where a single radar controller is trying his/her best to juggle IFR arrivals/deps, CTR transits and anything else that happens to want a LARS on a sunny day.
PPS. Having read the UK AIP entry it is pretty clear to me who you should call for a Zone transit.
1 General Information
1.1 Brize Norton Control Zone
1.1.1 Pilots wishing to enter the Control Zone must observe the normal procedure for joining Controlled Airspace and should make their request for
entry when 15 nm or 5 minutes flying time (whichever is earlier) from the Control Zone Boundary. Pilots should make their request for Control Zone entry to BRIZE ZONE.
ENR 2-1-21
 
Old 14th Apr 2007, 00:05
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Sideslipper,

You could always give BZN ATC a ring, I am sure they would love to enlighten you as to why they said what they did. Maybe you have found an error in a document (it happens all the time, someone somewhere misses a reference and a document slips through the net)

At the end of the day, the RAF have only been doing this since 1918, as opposed to civil ATC which started in the late 40's early 50's.

Just because it is different, doesn't mean it is wrong!
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Old 14th Apr 2007, 06:11
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Lomon,
Did I say it was wrong? I think not.
A somewhat unhelpful and defensive response to a simple question that was merely trying to establish some facts.
The fact that this footnote has been present on the card for the last 3 years to my knowledge would suggest that it was hardly an error in a document that had slipped through the net; (unless Brize doesn't check out references in official publications, presumably authorised by themselves, that often).
Just because an organisation has existed since 1918 doesn't necessarily make it right all the time. In this case it smacks of "we were here first, and therefore we are the experts". After over 60 years in a growing environment I think civilian ATC have just about got the hang of it by now.
London Mil,
Thanks for that snippet. The AIP is not a document I normally consult to that depth!
I am unaware of what the traffic load at Brize is, but your comments about the need for seperate Zone and LARS frequencies suggests it is greater than Bristol's, which I find a tad surprising.
It would seem that all that needs to be done is for the appropriate authority to remove the footnote at the next edition. Problem solved.
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Old 14th Apr 2007, 06:19
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SS, of course the AIP is the only authoratitive document for flt planning (remember the AIP includes AICs NOTAMs etc). I think you will find that Brize have a far greater amount of LARS traffic than Bristol. On the other hand Bristol obvioulsy have far more arrivals and departures
 
Old 14th Apr 2007, 10:37
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SS

I was actually trying to be helpful. Who produced your comms card? I spend my day working with documents like the Civ AIP and the Mil AIP and numerous CAP's. For docs that often reference each other and are often supposed to be identical there are errors. Frequency changes often slip through the net. Someone forgets to tell someone else that a change has been made, someone else might have missed a NOTAM.

You might find the BZN controller was bandboxed, monitoring the 2 freqs at the same time, but for personal preference wanted to only transmit on one of them.

I was serious about ringing Brize, if you aren't sure of a local procedure the controllers will be happy to explain why they do it that way because:
1) It beats arguing on the RT about it.
2) It shows someone does take an interest.
3) You will then tell all your mates in the flying club about the new procedure, so the controller will no longer get as many calls on the wrong freq.

Point out to BZN that the chart says to use one frequency whilst the ref card says use another, that way if the discrepancy needs correcting someone will know it exiests, and hopefully try to do something about it.

The bit about the RAF being "there first" was simply a response to your comment about Brize doing zone differently to Bristol. The RAF found it's way of providing ATC services before civil ATC did. Civil ATC is based on those early RAF procedures.

The airspace around Brize might be more complex than that around Bristol, which might be another reason why things are done differently, having different controllers for the different tasks.

I doubt Brize even get sight of every different document that references the airfield. It would take too much time . Would you expect them to check American docs for accuracy? What about docs translated into French or German? Where would the RAF find someone to check out a document in Chinese?

If Brize make any changes to frequencies or procedures they would send the change to AIDU, who would change the military documents, and AIS who would change the civil docs. NOTAMS would be raised until the changes are incorporated into the docs, and then it would be up to all the different suppliers of maps, reference cards, etc. to make those changes on their products.

Last edited by Lomon; 14th Apr 2007 at 10:58.
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 17:54
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Lomon,
The card is A5 sized and published by the CAA, complete with its logo and a statement that it includes changes notified by UK AIP Amendments up to 1 Feb 07! It is provided with each new 500 mil chart (and maybe others). Thus I assume it to be an authoritive document.
Regarding "being unsure of local procedures" is concerned, I wasn't. I was merely doing what the Campaign's card told me to do!
As far as ringing Brize about it, it ain't that important.
Given London Mil's reference to the AIP, in future I will simply ignore said footnote and call up on the Zone frequency.
(Now why couldn't that be included on the card? Dare I ask?)
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 19:50
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It could still have been an oversight on the CAA's part (it does happen)

Or it could have been the controller being
a) maxed out
b) bloody minded
c) both

Happy flying
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 20:25
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Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but the CAA merely reproduce what someone asks them to promulgate. In this situation the CAA have either not reproduced what has been asked, Brize have asked for the wrong thing or someone in the CAA has made an executive decision to cut something out of that natty little piece of A5.

Now if it were me, I would give Brize a call point out the ambiguity and suggest that they raise a 933 (the form used to notify the CAA of any change) requesting clarification on future publications.

On the other hand, this isn't exactly one of those life changing ommissions.
 
Old 16th Apr 2007, 12:45
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You read the Red book (ERS)? I use mine to prop-up the desk.

In that case, a call to Brize (at least the telephone number is correct) point the error out to them, they will then raise another form (can't remember the number) and post that one to AIDU at Northolt. The ERS will be amended and, ultimately, this amendment will appear in the AIP.

Probably less time and effort required than has been spent on this thread.
 
Old 20th Apr 2007, 09:23
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Just a thought... Owing to the plethora of published information (official and commercial) it is one hell of a job for a unit to keep up-to-date with all that is published on their behalf (especially UK Mil Units that have two sets of Docs to contend with). From experience I know that even high-lighting an error to the publisher cannot always guarantee an accurate ammendment (often your words are paraphrased).

Took over two years to get the world to acknolwedge a change of APP Freq at my last Tower... we had to resort to having a dialable, standby radio tuned to the old freq on loudspeaker to pick up the misinformed (of course none of those were using out-of-date info were they?)

Might also have been workload? If handling a problem on that frequency (or maybe UHF) the controller might want to offload traffic to another controller?

In otherwords plenty of reasons, the snappy reply might not be best practice - but we all have difficult days at work don't we?
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Old 20th Apr 2007, 18:02
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If you want some advice about how things operate at Brize please contact me I would be more than willing to assist genuine questions re Brize ops
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