ATC manning overnight at closed airports e.g. Bristol
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC manning overnight at closed airports e.g. Bristol
Excuse my total ignorance here, but why does somewhere like Bristol in the UK, that is closed to aircraft from around 11pm to 6am then have air traffic controllers on duty at those hours? There are no aircraft going through its airspace (oh the police helicopter every now and again). It would seem pointless to waste valued ATC hours manning something where there is no traffic for seven hours. With the shortage of ATC officers elsewhere why not use these hours differently?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you considered the possibililty of aircraft wishing to divert in emergency to Bristol, and the fact that the Controllers may be providing radar services to traffic not actually landing there?
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep Cardiff is also closed at night, and that is the only other airport that Bristol provides ATC traffic into. Also Bristol has had major work on the runway recently, so has been closed for diversions, adding to that it is also too small a runway to take large aircraft. (757 max capacity) Also Bristol's radar zone is capped with airways 7000ft+ above it.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Out on the bike in Northumberland
Posts: 578
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its normally easier to roster the night duty to come in and close the airfield and then open up after the WIP than to get people to stay on after an afternoon, or come in early for the morning duty-especially with regard to regulation of hours-thats certainly how we do it
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes Julian Cardiff is not closed at night and is H24 with ATC cover, love to know where you get your facts from 
As for Bristol the work should be finished soon in time for the Summer schedules as I understand it , Standard Noise please correct as you see fit on that one. Any changes to rosters has to be agreed locally and takes considerable negotiation and ballots etc for what is a relatively short term project just a matter of a few months.
I'm sure many people took time to try to catch up with the masses of paperwork that NATS now produces for ATCOs on the Night shifts during the construction work.
As for Bristol the work should be finished soon in time for the Summer schedules as I understand it , Standard Noise please correct as you see fit on that one. Any changes to rosters has to be agreed locally and takes considerable negotiation and ballots etc for what is a relatively short term project just a matter of a few months.
I'm sure many people took time to try to catch up with the masses of paperwork that NATS now produces for ATCOs on the Night shifts during the construction work.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mornin' all!
Julian, we've only been closed 2300-0600 throughout the winter season to facilitate the runway resurfacing/reprofiling being undertaken on behalf of the airport (and yes, it will all end soon and we'll be open for the summer season cos there will be planey things landing throughout the night! Oh and I hope it's not too much of a waste of resources, but we'll be rostering three, yes, three ATCOs for nights to cope with the pressure
).
That in itself only meant that the airport was closed, not ATC. But rather than re-deploy all the night staff onto days, we had to keep 2 ATCOs on night duty for several reasons
- to provide for LARS commitments since we offer LARS 24/7
- to look after the Southwest ie with Cardiff, Exeter, Bournemouth etc not providing radar services permanently through the night, we said we would since we do it the rest of the year if the need arises.
- so the late shift wouldn't have to extend after 2200 to accommodate the late closure (difficult to get round when you take into account the rostering, the 50 hour rule, O/T payments, asking lazy arsed ATCOs to stagger their shifts, PITA union reps and their petty rules etc).
- so the early shift wouldn't have to come in an hour and a half earlier to have the airfield ready for use at 0630 (for the same reasons as above).
No "valued ATC hours" have been wasted, believe me. Like many NATS units, there is always work to be done and for one reason in particular, the load on watch management has been heavier throughout the winter. We have also been able to both release people for courses (which need to be done) and crack on with ATCO training (to which we have a high training commitment at the minute) without dropping service levels to our customer.
Yes we have been closed to diversions six nights a week (ATCO Two, how clumsy of you not to notice
), but 757 is not the largest aircraft we can take, 767s come in once or twice a week (ooh, how exciting!
).
Now you've really lost me Julian. What is a radar zone? And why do you think it is capped with airways 7000ft+ above it? Our zone extends to FL105 and is now co-incident with the base of the airways system above it. And Julian, you don't have a PPL do you? If you do, I would urge you to buy a new airspace map (version 33 or later) and keep up to date.
flower - glad you haven't abandoned the board altogether, hope all is well.
Julian, we've only been closed 2300-0600 throughout the winter season to facilitate the runway resurfacing/reprofiling being undertaken on behalf of the airport (and yes, it will all end soon and we'll be open for the summer season cos there will be planey things landing throughout the night! Oh and I hope it's not too much of a waste of resources, but we'll be rostering three, yes, three ATCOs for nights to cope with the pressure
). That in itself only meant that the airport was closed, not ATC. But rather than re-deploy all the night staff onto days, we had to keep 2 ATCOs on night duty for several reasons
- to provide for LARS commitments since we offer LARS 24/7
- to look after the Southwest ie with Cardiff, Exeter, Bournemouth etc not providing radar services permanently through the night, we said we would since we do it the rest of the year if the need arises.
- so the late shift wouldn't have to extend after 2200 to accommodate the late closure (difficult to get round when you take into account the rostering, the 50 hour rule, O/T payments, asking lazy arsed ATCOs to stagger their shifts, PITA union reps and their petty rules etc).
- so the early shift wouldn't have to come in an hour and a half earlier to have the airfield ready for use at 0630 (for the same reasons as above).
No "valued ATC hours" have been wasted, believe me. Like many NATS units, there is always work to be done and for one reason in particular, the load on watch management has been heavier throughout the winter. We have also been able to both release people for courses (which need to be done) and crack on with ATCO training (to which we have a high training commitment at the minute) without dropping service levels to our customer.
Yes we have been closed to diversions six nights a week (ATCO Two, how clumsy of you not to notice
), but 757 is not the largest aircraft we can take, 767s come in once or twice a week (ooh, how exciting! ).
Also Bristol's radar zone is capped with airways 7000ft+ above it
flower - glad you haven't abandoned the board altogether, hope all is well.
Last edited by Standard Noise; 11th Apr 2007 at 08:37. Reason: bad spelling and grammar, not what you'd expect form a grammar school education!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flower - glad you haven't abandoned the board altogether, hope all is well.
I shall still be here supporting Cardiff and Bristol and doing some stuff for GATCO.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Julian - no time for meditation man, get reading, then you can start asking more challenging questions! I likes a challenge.
5 weeks! I get rusty on my 4 days off!!!
5 weeks! I get rusty on my 4 days off!!!
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok you say you cover Bournemouth. I thought your radar cover was limited to a certain range outside Bristol - for instance if you have an aircraft low over Bournemouth can you actually see them that far away?
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We can see them at Bournemouth down to about three grand. But let me clarify, we are the only civil radar unit (airfield based) who are open all night in the south west. We can and do talk to stuff going into (and out of) B'mouth, but we do not carry out an Approach Radar function for them. Once aircraft reach a point 42.5 NM from Bristol, we can no longer provide it with a radar service. Or at least that's the theory
.
.
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is Bristol part of a bigger plan if one of UK's major airports were closed for whatever reason i.e. basically are there plans that use Bristol as a nominated diversion place for any airport in any written plans?
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not that I'm aware of, but then again, Bristol's capacity to take diversions (even in 9/11 type emergency situations) is decided by the airport and it's handling agents, not us. We are merely a contracted service that they use.
Keep 'em coming but don't be worried if I don't get back to you today, Mrs Noise is glaring at me with a hammer in one hand. Hopefully it just means she wants some DIY doing!
Keep 'em coming but don't be worried if I don't get back to you today, Mrs Noise is glaring at me with a hammer in one hand. Hopefully it just means she wants some DIY doing!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Don't know what the situation is like these days but there was a time that a good number of airports were officially closed at night but efftively ran an H24operation.....something to do with being able to charge out of hours surcharges (and, to be more serious, maybe only manning up ATC positions and RFFS when an aircraft was actually using the place). Not nearly so common these days but it might still happen.
