Seperation From Formation Flights

[132.3]

Hi all,

Did a quick search and couldn't find anything so i wondered if the years of experience could. When seperating en-route within civil controlled airspace what is the standard seperation for GAT vs a Formation flight. Is it still 1000 feet?

Also within RVSM airspace if the flight is RVA then is it 1000 feet?
I cant find anything in part 1 on this.

your help is appreciated.

[Number2]

'Not all civil sectors accept formations as GAT and prefer the area mil guys to work them as they often cause difficulty'
You're right, some of the civil sectors can be difficult!!!

[MancBoy]

If anyone has access to the incidents publication from last summers incidents may I draw the attention to the incident on sector 12 where the mil were supposed to be within one mile of each other in a formation but because they lost visual contact with each other they were actually miles apart with only one squawking and the other a primary only return.
Needless to say it was the primary only track which got very close to a civilian aircraft which wouldn't get a TCAS as it was not squawking so therefore no mode c.
I think it says they were Greek.
Thats why we would rater not speak to formation flights.

[eyeinthesky]

Don't talk to me about Greek F4s...

Don't forget also that there is a risk that if formations lose visual contact in IMC then they might split to several levels. Therefore it is prudent to give 2000ft vertical separation.

Having said that, I have put a 737 in VMC 1000ft underneath the Red Arrows returning in formation to Scampton. The pilots were most appreciative

[anotherthing]

Don't forget also that there is a risk that if formations lose visual contact in IMC then they might split to several levels. Therefore it is prudent to give 2000ft vertical separation.

Unless standard operating procedures have changed, what you have described is not what would happen if the formation lost visual with each other.

Using 2000' is not a particularly good reason for this event... what about if the formation is a nine ship? How many levels of separation should we use then, just in case they lose visual reference?!!

Notwithstanding Mancboys post, there are standard laid down procedures for breakup of formation in poor vis, we as ATCOS should not start controlling any differently 'just in case', otherwise we would never get our jobs done... there is always a just in case with every instruction we give. We use 1000' separation, but what happens if an a/c has the wrong pressure setting - should we start increasing vertical separation for climbing/descending a/c 'just in case'?!!

[Articsky]

at least here in norway separation minimas differ if it's and offensive or defensive formation. defensive formation has bigger distance between the aircraft in the said formation than an offensive formation hence need to use bigger separation

[London Mil]

There is a bit of scaremongering here. Formations operate within CAS day-in day-out and the overwhelming majority cause no problems at all. The incident quoted by mancboy was indeed very scary but, to be honest, about the only thing that associated those two aircraft with each other was that they had previously been a formation and the so-called leader had managed to engineer himself a complete 'goat'! Furthermore, neither aircraft was ever cleared into CAS (either as a singleton or a formation) so I think it is a bit disingenuous trying to link an airspace infringement and subsequent airprox with a formation callsign. Within the UK, there is a common thread regarding the nationality of formations that get it wrong.

[Max Angle]

We saw the red arrows in formation going past a few thousand feet above us last summer, what a fantastic sight, I almost keyed the mike and asked them put the smoke on for us. So close but not too close is fine by us!. Also once saw them at high level over Europe on their way back to the UK, still pretty close together and trailing, looked great.

[MancBoy]

London Mil, as I do the DTY sector almost day in day out then military traffic is pretty much the norm going through that sector so I'm pretty used to seeing it.

Scaremongering? Don't think so, but I can also recall an incident a few years ago now with a russian tanker and 3 chicks which were all supposed to be at the same level going west into fairford, but, the chicks were a few hundred feet lower than the mother and got very close to a gatwick inbound going south.

I think UK formations are no problem but our foreign 'friends' ?

[millerman]

On the other side of the channel we have to have 6nm seperation as they can be up to 1nm apart

[London Mil]

i just chuckle that, when it suits, the GAT side of the house can quite happily manage formations (Fossett's Global Flyer with chase plane).

[MancBoy]

Shame it was the three ugliest blokes in the building for the publicity pics!!

[Jagohu]

At us there's quite some military traffic crossing the airspace - if they're in formation we apply 2000' or 7 nm radar separation... Is anyone here from the UK MIL who's familiar with the area just after NAVPI?

[M609]

I think UK formations are no problem but our foreign 'friends' ?

No, the UK chaps are probably saving their co*k ups for exercises abroad.......
I still have not experienced a RAF FJ det. without at least one problem involving no SSR, wingmen not squawking, formation busting CAS, and formations busting CAS without R/T and SSR.

Have never experienced the above with our local boys. Must be a going abroad thing.....

Still good fun trying to explain to a RAF FJ that RAS is not an option in a Class D TMA, nor is RIS. We let the class of airspace determine the service provided you see......

[London Mil]

M609, whilst we're at it, maybe someone in the TLP house should brief Italian AMX pilots that ATC instructions in Class C are mandatory. Either that or they can take their refusal to comply with avoiding action and animated discussion about being visual with Commercial IFR traffic straight to the LACC Sector 10 controllers. Or maybe we should chat with the French and Greek guys who were part of the same package and didn't quite keep clear of the London TMA (Class A). Or maybe we should counsel the same chaps on going 'on-route' only after they have cleared CAS and not before. Or maybe our 'allies' should understand that they really should stay at the levels they have been assigned whilst within CAS....

All in a day's work (well in the cases above, actually about 15 minutes)

Jagohu, yes quite familiar.

[Hippy]

I have put a 737 in VMC 1000ft underneath the Red Arrows returning in formation to Scampton. The pilots were most appreciative

Yes, I understand Red 6, in particular, is quite the spotter. Prolly would have appreciated something better than a lo-co 737 though!

[millerman]

Jagohu
I think you need to do some more studying mate - the seperation for formation flights is 6nm. You had better check the Matcom!

[M609]

should brief Italian AMX pilots

aah....I've got a couple of collauges at Bodų ATCC that have encountered them a few times. And not in a good way! (So has helicopter crews from CHC, come to think of it!!)

Allied training is allways fun.

(To get some balance to the proceedings, I allmost sh** myself, when sat on approach, the range commander of a frng range inside "my" TMA called, pleading us to remove the fighters orbiting at 5000ft above a MLRS battery that had just fired a salvo. That was the Mirage 2000Ds of the FaF that told me earlier that they talked to said range, and was cleared in for dry runs.... )