Red stop bars
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Joined: May 2002
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From: UK
Red stop bars
Having been given an 'after the landing xxxx, line up' clearance at a major London airport the other day, the Cat 1 hold reds remained illuminated after passage of said arriving aircraft. We stopped short of the hold and queried this and were then given an instruction to cross these reds and line up. I understand that recently there has been a directive that crossing reds can only ever be done with a 'follow me' vehicle. Does anyone have any more specific information as to where this is in print? MATS perhaps?
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Anywhere
MATS pt 1, Section 2, Chapter 1 para 9.3.4
At aerodromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes andrunways from inadvertent incursions, controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an illuminated stop-bar. Inoperable taxiway stop-bars and associated taxiways should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routeing used. The Aerodrome Authority may decide, on grounds of safety, that inoperable stop-bars and associated taxiways be withdrawn from service.
On the occasions when the withdrawal of inoperable stop-bars and associated
taxiways is not possible and the stop-bar cannot be readily suppressed, an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller.
b) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies only to the faulty stop-bar.
c) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway, aircraft may not be cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle.
NOTE: The requirement at a) above may be satisfied by the use of an SMR which has been approved by the CAA for this purpose.
On the occasions when the withdrawal of inoperable stop-bars and associated
taxiways is not possible and the stop-bar cannot be readily suppressed, an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller.
b) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies only to the faulty stop-bar.
c) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway, aircraft may not be cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle.
NOTE: The requirement at a) above may be satisfied by the use of an SMR which has been approved by the CAA for this purpose.
Joined: May 2002
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From: Surrey
Coupled with a chronicly undestaffed BAA the chance of a follow me is not always a good one!
, but this was proof, if any was needed, that more staff are needed!
Alteburger
You did the correct thing in querying and as chili says, you should not have to be crossing red bars to get onto an active runway!!!
It sets a dangerous precedent!!FB
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: UK Home Counties
Personally I won't cross one if it's lit, unless specifically instructed to do so.
And if you do, at any airport having NATS as the ATS Provider, it's rated as a 'Runway Incursion' and could invoke the filing of an MOR.
Even if ATC's given you a 'conditional clearance', if the reds are still red when you need to enter the runway, hold position and query the clearance.
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Commuting not home
Some time ago a saw BA767 cross a lit red line-up bar at LHR 27R after receiving instruction to Line-up 27R, cross the stop bar. We went behind to holding point and later received instruction to line-up with the bar still lit (not going off soon after the instruction, respectively). Both crewmen agreed that it was the same case as previous and we proceeded to cross it at which point I included the information in my readback. Line up 27R and wait and, eeh' we're crossing the stop bar? ...
The answer was a simple NO.
FD.
PS: at LHR exit from Q to B the stop bar is malfunctioning, i.e. the two right most lights (three on each side of the centerline) are lit permanenetly. I advised the polite gentleman on ground freq. about two weeks ago but this week the problem was still evident. Perhaps some of loyal readers have more leverage over this than the ATCO?
The answer was a simple NO.
FD.
PS: at LHR exit from Q to B the stop bar is malfunctioning, i.e. the two right most lights (three on each side of the centerline) are lit permanenetly. I advised the polite gentleman on ground freq. about two weeks ago but this week the problem was still evident. Perhaps some of loyal readers have more leverage over this than the ATCO?
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Scandiland
Absolutely 100% correct!
And if you do, at any airport having NATS as the ATS Provider, it's rated as a 'Runway Incursion' and could invoke the filing of an MOR.
Even if ATC's given you a 'conditional clearance', if the reds are still red when you need to enter the runway, hold position and query the clearance.
And if you do, at any airport having NATS as the ATS Provider, it's rated as a 'Runway Incursion' and could invoke the filing of an MOR.
Even if ATC's given you a 'conditional clearance', if the reds are still red when you need to enter the runway, hold position and query the clearance.
/LnS
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
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From: Commuting not home
Don't get me wrong. I tried to cross a bar against all rules with good intentions once, only to be reasurred that you guys rely on us to follow the rules. Those two little reds shatter my lately gained belief in the system.
FD.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: UK
We push and push yet little progress seems to be made. Once one fault is corrected another one occurs. On the handover sheet from the Sup's desk there are usually at least 10 outstanding lighting faults - there are far more that are reported and not recored/recorded and no chase given to the resolution.
If pilots wished to file ASRs with regard to contiunal unservicability then this might help.
If pilots wished to file ASRs with regard to contiunal unservicability then this might help.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: United Kingdom
All of these problems notwithstanding, NOBODY should cross a red stopbar onto a runway without some kind of Leader vehicle.
If the bar is stuck on then stop at the point where all aircraft are to line up from, stop departing. Then the Aerodrome Authority will sit up and take notice - trust me..
P7
If the bar is stuck on then stop at the point where all aircraft are to line up from, stop departing. Then the Aerodrome Authority will sit up and take notice - trust me..
P7
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: EGLL
PS: at LHR exit from Q to B the stop bar is malfunctioning, i.e. the two right most lights (three on each side of the centerline) are lit permanenetly. I advised the polite gentleman on ground freq. about two weeks ago but this week the problem was still evident. Perhaps some of loyal readers have more leverage over this than the ATCO?
Last night I have AGAIN reported this very fault to the BAA along with a number of other faults.
I'm going to make it my personal mission to kick the BAA up the backside everyday until they get so sick of me they start getting the faults rectified in an acceptable timescale. I have no desire in pilots losing faith in the system because it will make the GMC’s job and mine a whole lot more difficult if pilots start questioning the system.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: England
OK Another scenario:-
Sat in your respective towers' stops illuminated and an a/c at a holding point, behind the stops, is given a conditional line up clearance which he acknowledges and reads back correctly.
Do you then turn off the stops and perhaps activate centerline/lead in lights onto the runway at the time you receive the correct readback or wait finger poised over your lighting panel button until the landing a/c has passed the appropriate intersection.
Could taking the first action (deactivating stops after receiving correct readback) be taken as an invitation by the a/c at the holding point to proceed onto an active runway.
Sat in your respective towers' stops illuminated and an a/c at a holding point, behind the stops, is given a conditional line up clearance which he acknowledges and reads back correctly.
Do you then turn off the stops and perhaps activate centerline/lead in lights onto the runway at the time you receive the correct readback or wait finger poised over your lighting panel button until the landing a/c has passed the appropriate intersection.
Could taking the first action (deactivating stops after receiving correct readback) be taken as an invitation by the a/c at the holding point to proceed onto an active runway.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: England
But going back to the original posts, do we have the time to sit there dilligently waiting for the exact time to turn the reds off without being pestered by the a/c patiently waiting for the stops to be turned off.
As we all know there are other things going on most of the time, perhaps sometimes during moderate/heavy traffic levels ATCO's simply forget and have to be politely reminded by the pilot, no probs, everybody's human etc the system has failed safe.
It is perhaps during these times that pilots might assume that the ATCO has forgotten and proceed anyway. By the way I know the golden rule "Never assume always check" But this is 2006 traffic levels after all!
As we all know there are other things going on most of the time, perhaps sometimes during moderate/heavy traffic levels ATCO's simply forget and have to be politely reminded by the pilot, no probs, everybody's human etc the system has failed safe.
It is perhaps during these times that pilots might assume that the ATCO has forgotten and proceed anyway. By the way I know the golden rule "Never assume always check" But this is 2006 traffic levels after all!
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: LHR/EGLL
All it usually needs is one word 'reds' to prompt the ATCO (or at least me) to drop the bar. Not too much in the grand scheme of things.
I'd far rather get 45 a/c away in an hour and have a few query me when I forget to drop the reds than get 47 away but have them all crossing over red bars because they read back their line up clearance correctly.
Hell, I'd rather get 20 a/c away in an hour than have that happen.
That an a/c has read back his line up clearance correctly is no guarantee that it will line up correctly. In fact, we've had quite a few incursions during the day by aircraft who didn't have any line up clearance. In those cases, the red bar is the only thing stopping it happening at night.
I'd far rather get 45 a/c away in an hour and have a few query me when I forget to drop the reds than get 47 away but have them all crossing over red bars because they read back their line up clearance correctly.
Hell, I'd rather get 20 a/c away in an hour than have that happen.
That an a/c has read back his line up clearance correctly is no guarantee that it will line up correctly. In fact, we've had quite a few incursions during the day by aircraft who didn't have any line up clearance. In those cases, the red bar is the only thing stopping it happening at night.
