Emergency Protocol
Emergency Protocol
Just a quick question for our ATC colleagues.
The other day a light aircraft (retractable single) arrived at EG** with an apparent landing gear problem. The pilot made a couple of low inspection passes before electing to land at this single runway International airport. Fortunately the gear was fine and he was able to taxi clear and life went on as normal. If, however, the gear had collapsed, the runway would have been blocked for some considerable time awaiting AAIB attendance causing very considerable disruption to the commercial programme for many hours. Weather was not an issue and judging by the very large circuit patterns being utilised neither was fuel but obviously I have no definitive information as to the latter.
In such a situation, do you as controllers have any discretion to advise the aircraft to divert to an alternative airfield which could adequately deal with such a scenario without the obvious knock-on effect to normal operations ? In this instance there are at least two significant GA airfields within ten minutes flying time with emergency equipment available.
I would add at this juncture that I do not know if the aircraft in question was due arrive at EG** or was using the airport as best option in this scenario. Clearly sympathy is due to the pilot in question who was no doubt more than a little concerned with his plight and controllers will assist as much as they can to get him on the ground. The same airfield was recently closed in a high profile incident by a medium size freight aircraft which blocked the runway for a long period of time causing major delays - this incident (no prizes for guessing which airport now !) was clearly much different in scale.
Answers on a postcard please
The other day a light aircraft (retractable single) arrived at EG** with an apparent landing gear problem. The pilot made a couple of low inspection passes before electing to land at this single runway International airport. Fortunately the gear was fine and he was able to taxi clear and life went on as normal. If, however, the gear had collapsed, the runway would have been blocked for some considerable time awaiting AAIB attendance causing very considerable disruption to the commercial programme for many hours. Weather was not an issue and judging by the very large circuit patterns being utilised neither was fuel but obviously I have no definitive information as to the latter.
In such a situation, do you as controllers have any discretion to advise the aircraft to divert to an alternative airfield which could adequately deal with such a scenario without the obvious knock-on effect to normal operations ? In this instance there are at least two significant GA airfields within ten minutes flying time with emergency equipment available.
I would add at this juncture that I do not know if the aircraft in question was due arrive at EG** or was using the airport as best option in this scenario. Clearly sympathy is due to the pilot in question who was no doubt more than a little concerned with his plight and controllers will assist as much as they can to get him on the ground. The same airfield was recently closed in a high profile incident by a medium size freight aircraft which blocked the runway for a long period of time causing major delays - this incident (no prizes for guessing which airport now !) was clearly much different in scale.
Answers on a postcard please
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any ATCO who tries to tell any a/c in emergency that they can't land at his/her airfield ought to be horsewhipped. Let's turn it round a little and say that ATCO A tells Mr X to go and land somewhere else. Two miles away from ATCO A's airfield, Mr X's puddle jumper develops another, more serious problem and falls from the sky to a fiery death. I don't think ATCO A would be too popular.
This sort of situation is where I (and presumably many of my fellow brethren) consider that commercial needs come second to flight safety. (You see DFC, LONDON MIL et al, I'm not such a heartless b*****d after all). Some of the London airports might feel differently though.
This sort of situation is where I (and presumably many of my fellow brethren) consider that commercial needs come second to flight safety. (You see DFC, LONDON MIL et al, I'm not such a heartless b*****d after all). Some of the London airports might feel differently though.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beamer,
We as ATC would never make that call on our own, but we might very well be instructed by the aerodrome authority to request the pilot land elsewhere if it looks likely that the runway will be blocked and/or cause significant disruption.
Of course, the pilot can then say 'no' and land anyway.
We as ATC would never make that call on our own, but we might very well be instructed by the aerodrome authority to request the pilot land elsewhere if it looks likely that the runway will be blocked and/or cause significant disruption.
Of course, the pilot can then say 'no' and land anyway.
Grumpy
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 35-21 South 149-06 East
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was in the right hand seat of a C210 on take off from Lighhtning Ridge when the captain asked wehther I had a wheel outsie - I replied yes. His response was well you shouldn't have I have put the handle up. Whoops - with partially retracted UC we decided to go to Cunna-bloody-mulla in Queensland because they had better facilities.
We went through the hand crank procedure and managed to get 3 greens but had to wait circling over the top for about 45 minutes to come out to the airport. Finally they managed to get the doctor off the golf course and the cop out of the pub and they duly arrived and parked the ambulance and the fire engine down the cross runway - not into wind.
I was working the radio and we had another aircraft on the ground we were talking to. I asked why they had lined up along the strip we did not intend to use. The reply I got back from the young constable was 'my sargeant said that this is where they want you to uput it down so you don't bugger up the blacktop.'
Our immediate response was 'is your seargeant up here with us' - 'no - the young constable advised' - 'well move the bloody equipment and we will tell YOU which runway we will be using!'
As it turned our the gear didn't collapse but as soon as we parked it the horn kept blaring and the greens went red - U/sed immediately.
We went through the hand crank procedure and managed to get 3 greens but had to wait circling over the top for about 45 minutes to come out to the airport. Finally they managed to get the doctor off the golf course and the cop out of the pub and they duly arrived and parked the ambulance and the fire engine down the cross runway - not into wind.
I was working the radio and we had another aircraft on the ground we were talking to. I asked why they had lined up along the strip we did not intend to use. The reply I got back from the young constable was 'my sargeant said that this is where they want you to uput it down so you don't bugger up the blacktop.'
Our immediate response was 'is your seargeant up here with us' - 'no - the young constable advised' - 'well move the bloody equipment and we will tell YOU which runway we will be using!'
As it turned our the gear didn't collapse but as soon as we parked it the horn kept blaring and the greens went red - U/sed immediately.
Any commercial pilot would not bat an eyelid at telling ATC that 'thanks, but I'm staying here rather than going to little piddlington'.
Many PPL pilots view Air Traffic as being the sky police and would feel a lot of pressure to bog off to somewhere smaller if it were suggested/requested.
The ideal scenario is one where during training the student is made aware that, all things being equal, cause a problem at little piddlington and not major international.
Until you've been up there, scared and wanting to be on the ground you might not have the correct empathy setting for dealing with a light aircraft pilot in distress.
Cheers
WWW
Many PPL pilots view Air Traffic as being the sky police and would feel a lot of pressure to bog off to somewhere smaller if it were suggested/requested.
The ideal scenario is one where during training the student is made aware that, all things being equal, cause a problem at little piddlington and not major international.
Until you've been up there, scared and wanting to be on the ground you might not have the correct empathy setting for dealing with a light aircraft pilot in distress.
Cheers
WWW
Gonzo - thankyou. I guess a variation upon my question would be - ok, you can land here but we would like you to use the short runway rather than the main or perhaps if the airfield had such an option, we would like you to use the grass runway rather than the tarmac. Before our GA bretheren get too upset, my query was not a dig at anyone just a simple request for the actual position in the real world which is to a greater or lesser extent dictated by commercial issues. Lets face it, sometimes in a potential emergency situation you have to make a choice; lose an engine in a single and you need to find a field immediately - lose an engine in a large commercial jet and you still have options (hopefully). If I have an emergency which requires an immediate landing, I still may have choices to make - do I go for A which is just long enough but has a stonking crosswind and cloudbase at or around minima or do I fly another five minutes to B whcih gives me an extra couple of thousand feet and a runway into wind. If I have an uncontainable cabin fire I need to get this heap on the ground NOW but if I have lost an engine or a hydraulic system my priorities may be slightly different - I may still have to land sooner rather than later but I have options to consider.
Going back to the topic of our friend in the light single - an engine about to give up the ghost, get it on the ground whilst you can - control problem, again get it on the ground now - but different problems such as the one in question assuming no fuel issue may require some different reasoning. The easy answer of course is to say that the pilot has the right to elect to land wherever he wishes under the umbrella of flight safety - the question was posed directly to the controllers amongst us who MAY have to consider other issues when faced with such circumstances.
Going back to the topic of our friend in the light single - an engine about to give up the ghost, get it on the ground whilst you can - control problem, again get it on the ground now - but different problems such as the one in question assuming no fuel issue may require some different reasoning. The easy answer of course is to say that the pilot has the right to elect to land wherever he wishes under the umbrella of flight safety - the question was posed directly to the controllers amongst us who MAY have to consider other issues when faced with such circumstances.
Last edited by beamer; 9th Aug 2006 at 16:29.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beamer, I guess I should have expanded on my first reply.
That was what could technically happen.
If I am controlling when an emergency happens, reading out a passage of text from my manual that requests a pilot to land elsewhere because of external considerations would be the last thing on my mind, and I've never done it, even though at one stage I was requested to do so.
I don't work at a GA airfield, so I'll leave that aspect for others to discuss.
We do 'manage' emergencies to a certain extent. If an inbound has a hydraulic failure and is doubtful of its ability to vacate the runway, all other things being equal, we'll land it on the runway which at the time would be the worst choice for gonig single runway, leaving the better one available. All that goes out the window ifv the crew requests a particular runway.
That was what could technically happen.
If I am controlling when an emergency happens, reading out a passage of text from my manual that requests a pilot to land elsewhere because of external considerations would be the last thing on my mind, and I've never done it, even though at one stage I was requested to do so.
I don't work at a GA airfield, so I'll leave that aspect for others to discuss.
We do 'manage' emergencies to a certain extent. If an inbound has a hydraulic failure and is doubtful of its ability to vacate the runway, all other things being equal, we'll land it on the runway which at the time would be the worst choice for gonig single runway, leaving the better one available. All that goes out the window ifv the crew requests a particular runway.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many years ago I had 'instructed' my Jet Provost 'Air Chief Marshall of the Future' in the 'PRACTICE' Speechless drill at Cranners.
Blow me down if we did not have a real TX failure a few days later. "XXXX" I blipped to Cranners'. Back came the reply "Speechless One - is this a practice"? "XX" went I. A moments silence, then "Roger - do not land here, you are to divert".
I landed at the Towers
Blow me down if we did not have a real TX failure a few days later. "XXXX" I blipped to Cranners'. Back came the reply "Speechless One - is this a practice"? "XX" went I. A moments silence, then "Roger - do not land here, you are to divert".
I landed at the Towers
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bottom line, Beamer, is that civil ATC cannot instruct a pilot to divert. As Gonzo said, they can be asked to transmit a message obo the airport aurhority asking if the pilot would consider going elsewhere, etc, etc. However, the final decision is that of the pilot and nobody should question that.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If anyone's querying whether this really happens, my airfield took a diversion from Birmingham last year - a largeish piston cessna with a gear problem. Turns out he was inbound to BB and couldn't get three greens. After the pilot tried to rectify, but was unable to, BB told him to sod off because they didn't want their runway blocked.
TBH, since a controller cannot deny a landing clearance, I wonder about whoever held him and alerted management, rather than pressing the big red button and making him #1. I wonder how they would feel if the problem had become something much bigger while he was diverting.
TBH, since a controller cannot deny a landing clearance, I wonder about whoever held him and alerted management, rather than pressing the big red button and making him #1. I wonder how they would feel if the problem had become something much bigger while he was diverting.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cdb,
When an ATCO presses the 'big red button' the airfield authority is one of the agencies who answers the phone! It's a bit difficult to have an emergency inbound to to an airfield without them finding out!
I wonder about whoever held him and alerted management, rather than pressing the big red button and making him #1
When an ATCO presses the 'big red button' the airfield authority is one of the agencies who answers the phone! It's a bit difficult to have an emergency inbound to to an airfield without them finding out!
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by London Mil
SN, was there really any need to throw stones there?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Scotland
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In one sense it doesn't make much difference to the ATCO whether the runway becomes blocked or not. It does, however, make a large difference to the airport authority and the other operators who may face lengthy delays or diversions. For that reason, in the above example, the aerodrome authority may request that ATC pass a message to the pilot asking if he can accept another runway, or even land elsewhere, but that's all it is - a request. Ultimately it is the aircraft commander's choice when and where he lands, and if it's the major airport with full RFF facilities, and a runway and approach that he's familiar with and briefed for, then so be it. As WWW says, the less experienced PPL would feel under much more pressure to accede to such a request at exactly the point when there should be no extra distractions.
aceatco, retired
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I have been in the position of asking an aircraft with a problem, on behalf of the aerodrome authority, if he would consider going elsewhere. As we were his base he politely declined! It wasn't mentioned again.
beamer, in the circumstances you describe I doubt AAIB would want to attend before the aircraft was moved. In the last wheels-up I was involved in the permission to move aircraft came very quickly. Of course, how soon it is moved depends on the kit the airport have to do the job.
This always amuses me. What dispute do you mean?
beamer, in the circumstances you describe I doubt AAIB would want to attend before the aircraft was moved. In the last wheels-up I was involved in the permission to move aircraft came very quickly. Of course, how soon it is moved depends on the kit the airport have to do the job.
Of course, a quick call to D&D, who are the Executive Authority for all aircraft emergencies, may resolve any dispute.
Guest
Posts: n/a
VA, maybe the word 'dispute' is not quite right. I can certainly think of scenarios where airport and airfield authorities have questioned the decison to use them for an emergency landing. Didn't we have a huge 'inquest' some years back after a Virgin A340 with undercarriage probelms at LHR?
SN, discharge is a wonderful thing that happens more than once in a lifetime.
SN, discharge is a wonderful thing that happens more than once in a lifetime.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gonzo
cdb,
When an ATCO presses the 'big red button' the airfield authority is one of the agencies who answers the phone! It's a bit difficult to have an emergency inbound to to an airfield without them finding out!
When an ATCO presses the 'big red button' the airfield authority is one of the agencies who answers the phone! It's a bit difficult to have an emergency inbound to to an airfield without them finding out!
Besides, my call to management wouldn't be "Can we land the emergency" but "He's landing in 2 mins".