Crossing Restictions
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Join Date: Feb 2000
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Crossing Restictions
Couple of weeks ago hand a go-around with a controller,on a flight from Kphx-Kmsp...any and all feel free to comment.I have a few mates who are controllers and we dig one another all the time,so this is not a pissandmoan or attack but a situation that occured.
The flight was a canned flight plan,Kphx-Kmsp with the usual dispatch stuff,a SID and a STAR.Filed altitude was FL370.At my decent point via the computer generated decent profile,Iasked for lower as this was based on a crossing fix,ie,,.."turbojets expect 1100","turboprops expect 9000"....controller came back and said unable due to crossing traffic...no worries,well pick up the decent rate if he gives me the clearance.
After about 4 mins,the controller gives me a decent to FL240,prod page shows we are about 6000FT above profile,a couple of minutes later we get ,...decend and maintain 11000.....so we start down,way above profile and evan though we "expected" the 11000,my thoughts were that the controller saw this a recognised that we would be unable to make the retriction....not to be.
Several minutes later the controller asks me if I,m going to be able to make the 11000ft restriction and I reply ...you never gave us that clearance..his reply was...did you not expect it....I repled... yes I.did..but thats not the clearance you gave me...you only cleared me to 11000,...not to cross the fix at 11000.....we could have made it,but emergency decents are not part of a normal profile,
Well mate!!! that was the wrong thing to say...we get turned off the airway,..a given the ol telephone # to call(love to hear other buggars get that)....as it turns out everything was ticketyboo,landed without incident
Talking to Tracon super...he informs me we both had our heads up are arses,no foul,no worries.....good bloke,easy going...
My question to him was...I was with the misses last night,I"expected" a little bit of "slap and tickle" but never got it...... the STAR said "expect 11000" but I never got that clearance ethier...
My question(and Ive checked the FAR,S)do most controllers "expect" you to make a crossing restricrion even if you havent been given that clearance...
Like I said,this is not a parting shot or pissandmoan.....I beat my ATC Controller mate in golf all the time!!!
kia kaha PB
The flight was a canned flight plan,Kphx-Kmsp with the usual dispatch stuff,a SID and a STAR.Filed altitude was FL370.At my decent point via the computer generated decent profile,Iasked for lower as this was based on a crossing fix,ie,,.."turbojets expect 1100","turboprops expect 9000"....controller came back and said unable due to crossing traffic...no worries,well pick up the decent rate if he gives me the clearance.
After about 4 mins,the controller gives me a decent to FL240,prod page shows we are about 6000FT above profile,a couple of minutes later we get ,...decend and maintain 11000.....so we start down,way above profile and evan though we "expected" the 11000,my thoughts were that the controller saw this a recognised that we would be unable to make the retriction....not to be.
Several minutes later the controller asks me if I,m going to be able to make the 11000ft restriction and I reply ...you never gave us that clearance..his reply was...did you not expect it....I repled... yes I.did..but thats not the clearance you gave me...you only cleared me to 11000,...not to cross the fix at 11000.....we could have made it,but emergency decents are not part of a normal profile,
Well mate!!! that was the wrong thing to say...we get turned off the airway,..a given the ol telephone # to call(love to hear other buggars get that)....as it turns out everything was ticketyboo,landed without incident
Talking to Tracon super...he informs me we both had our heads up are arses,no foul,no worries.....good bloke,easy going...
My question to him was...I was with the misses last night,I"expected" a little bit of "slap and tickle" but never got it...... the STAR said "expect 11000" but I never got that clearance ethier...
My question(and Ive checked the FAR,S)do most controllers "expect" you to make a crossing restricrion even if you havent been given that clearance...
Like I said,this is not a parting shot or pissandmoan.....I beat my ATC Controller mate in golf all the time!!!
kia kaha PB
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Well there are right and wrongs everywhere...
I would expect that an expectation would be met, or planned to be met. Yes it's not a clearance, but it is what you can expect... i.e. expect FL110 or lower by 40 DME; due traffic at 80DME I can't clear you to it, but I will at 70DME.
If you are now well above profile (for the expectation) I would have expected advice that "we can't make it"; not just wondering down even at a good rate cause you've given the idea of making it away (I might not have put two and two together because of the other 8 conflicts I'm looking at)...
It might have been obvious to the ATC (when he asked you) that you weren't going to make it, but they were planning on you getting there as there wasn't subsequent advice. I guess you could have been cleared at anytime to make the expectation an actual requirement; might have gone ugly if...
Personally I try to avoid expectations, as they can creat expectation bias, ie taking the expectation as the clearance. I prefer to give a clearance which will allow subsequent restrictions to be met, based upon my knowledge of aircraft performance and the given conditions of the day. ie if you had to be point X at FL110; I'd get you to a level when I would expect you to be able to meet the restriction actually needed... This can be ugly too... If you have to level out early it's bad for fuel economy; pilots hate being pushed around and tend to ask why this is happening which ends up in you explaining the expectation bias event etc.
I would expect that an expectation would be met, or planned to be met. Yes it's not a clearance, but it is what you can expect... i.e. expect FL110 or lower by 40 DME; due traffic at 80DME I can't clear you to it, but I will at 70DME.
If you are now well above profile (for the expectation) I would have expected advice that "we can't make it"; not just wondering down even at a good rate cause you've given the idea of making it away (I might not have put two and two together because of the other 8 conflicts I'm looking at)...
It might have been obvious to the ATC (when he asked you) that you weren't going to make it, but they were planning on you getting there as there wasn't subsequent advice. I guess you could have been cleared at anytime to make the expectation an actual requirement; might have gone ugly if...
Personally I try to avoid expectations, as they can creat expectation bias, ie taking the expectation as the clearance. I prefer to give a clearance which will allow subsequent restrictions to be met, based upon my knowledge of aircraft performance and the given conditions of the day. ie if you had to be point X at FL110; I'd get you to a level when I would expect you to be able to meet the restriction actually needed... This can be ugly too... If you have to level out early it's bad for fuel economy; pilots hate being pushed around and tend to ask why this is happening which ends up in you explaining the expectation bias event etc.
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Hi Boy;
If the Star said "expect" and you didn't have it issued, then the controller can't expect you to cross it at 110... He may have thought that he had told you to and didn't. If he didn't and still expected you to cross it at 110, then he needs some remedial training...
regards
Scott
If the Star said "expect" and you didn't have it issued, then the controller can't expect you to cross it at 110... He may have thought that he had told you to and didn't. If he didn't and still expected you to cross it at 110, then he needs some remedial training...
regards
Scott
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Pakeha...
First of all, you're obviously a liar. To wit:
Impossible. 
Anyway, I agree with Scott. I'd even guess that the STAR further expands on the fact that this is simply planning information...
But I believe ths supervisor had it right. You're absolutley right about the rules and you were perfectly legal. You also were not completely blameless.
First of all, you're obviously a liar. To wit:
I beat my ATC Controller mate in golf all the time!!!
Anyway, I agree with Scott. I'd even guess that the STAR further expands on the fact that this is simply planning information...
But I believe ths supervisor had it right. You're absolutley right about the rules and you were perfectly legal. You also were not completely blameless.
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av8boy......okay,okay....the golf thing was only to ruffle a few feathers,but he always uses that leather wedge(foot)......
Its always pilot error
and the fix (shohn) is the fix in question.....more than happy to take a spanking,and a rev-up when required....bottom line,I appreciate the service and professionalism you blokes give...PB
Its always pilot error
and the fix (shohn) is the fix in question.....more than happy to take a spanking,and a rev-up when required....bottom line,I appreciate the service and professionalism you blokes give...PB
