NATS college woes?
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: uk
Gonzo,
Well when you see the guys at the college getting Band 5 pay for being a ''Teecha'',when we are slogging our guts out operationally then I think a low opinion of them is justified.
We require Twr and App radar to be of any use here on the Airport side,and get paid a whole £ 21 K LESS than these guys.
Try being a teacher in the roughest parts of Glasgow,like my other half used to be.The college instructors get 3 times what REAL teachers get,and the students ain't going give you verbal !!!! and beat you up.
The college instructors are mega protected,and mega pampered.Come out to the outstations and see what Nats can really do for you.
Thread slip Rant over and out. sorry 
Staffing up to complement 2009.
Better up the wages here then
Well when you see the guys at the college getting Band 5 pay for being a ''Teecha'',when we are slogging our guts out operationally then I think a low opinion of them is justified.
We require Twr and App radar to be of any use here on the Airport side,and get paid a whole £ 21 K LESS than these guys.
Try being a teacher in the roughest parts of Glasgow,like my other half used to be.The college instructors get 3 times what REAL teachers get,and the students ain't going give you verbal !!!! and beat you up.
The college instructors are mega protected,and mega pampered.Come out to the outstations and see what Nats can really do for you.
Thread slip Rant over and out.
sorry Staffing up to complement 2009.
Better up the wages here then
Last edited by throw a dyce; 17th July 2006 at 21:54.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 624
Likes: 17
From: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Does that mean that we are now all peanuts (Complementary). Seriously if the people who decide what students need to know want to come and train on unit, please do, as it is making my life hell. We have to treat them like idiots, and take over whenever it gets "too busy" even after 2 months training. I am happy to help as a mentor whenever atrainee needs it, but they seem to not to be able to cope with the simplest of tasks, and it is not fair on them or me. This is all about doing it on the cheap. If we stop training will it help the problem? Probably not.
/Rant off
/Rant off
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Terrain Safe:
Complement: "b : the quantity, number, or assortment required to make a thing complete"
Complimentary: "1 a : expressing or containing a compliment <a complimentary remark> b : FAVORABLE <the novel received complimentary reviews>
2 : given free as a courtesy or favor"
Guys, I wasn't talking about whether the instructors at the College are worth the salary they get and all that. If you want to discuss that, open another thread. At the end of the day, Dances with Boffins and his colleagues only teach the trainees what they're told to teach them, given limited time and resources. Bear in mind that aerodrome trainees get as much headset time on the whole aerodrome course, as they do in as little as two and a half cycles at a unit. Not much, is it, given the broad spectra of material they have to digest? Let's not get into a pissing contest about a certain old cliche that starts 'those that can, do,.......etc etc. I'm sure we can all come up with some of our colleagues who really shouldn't be OJTIs, or Supervisors, so who are we to condemn? How many of us have been college instructors? How would we react to a bunch of college instructors criticising the way we work?
Anyway, to get this back on track, my gist was that nobody at the units should criticise anyone apart from those who made the decision.
Complement: "b : the quantity, number, or assortment required to make a thing complete"
Complimentary: "1 a : expressing or containing a compliment <a complimentary remark> b : FAVORABLE <the novel received complimentary reviews>
2 : given free as a courtesy or favor"
Guys, I wasn't talking about whether the instructors at the College are worth the salary they get and all that. If you want to discuss that, open another thread. At the end of the day, Dances with Boffins and his colleagues only teach the trainees what they're told to teach them, given limited time and resources. Bear in mind that aerodrome trainees get as much headset time on the whole aerodrome course, as they do in as little as two and a half cycles at a unit. Not much, is it, given the broad spectra of material they have to digest? Let's not get into a pissing contest about a certain old cliche that starts 'those that can, do,.......etc etc. I'm sure we can all come up with some of our colleagues who really shouldn't be OJTIs, or Supervisors, so who are we to condemn? How many of us have been college instructors? How would we react to a bunch of college instructors criticising the way we work?
Anyway, to get this back on track, my gist was that nobody at the units should criticise anyone apart from those who made the decision.
Last edited by Gonzo; 17th July 2006 at 22:31.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 624
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From: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Gonzo, I wasn't blaming the College I was blaming the 'decision makers', they are the ones who need to be held to account. BTW when I did my cadetship, many many years ago I had a total of about 20/30 hours before going out on unit. I think the general training I had about ATC in general was far better than that the students are told now. They are taught to pass exams not to be controllers. BTW still not having a go at instructors but the 'system' in general.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Terrain Safe, I wasn't getting at anybody in particular, just wanted to pre-empt anyone else getting in there and escalating it!
You're 100% correct....The general ATC/aviation training I got even in 98/99 was a lot more comprehensive than trainees get now. However, if you're told to increase trainee output and cut course lengths, which are you going to get rid of? Ten sim runs or an afternoon's visit to Heathrow and a bit of OJT etc etc?
We at the units who are faced with the consequences of these decisions should be putting pressure on our GMs and NSL bigwigs to reverse it. I know we at Heathrow are.
You're 100% correct....The general ATC/aviation training I got even in 98/99 was a lot more comprehensive than trainees get now. However, if you're told to increase trainee output and cut course lengths, which are you going to get rid of? Ten sim runs or an afternoon's visit to Heathrow and a bit of OJT etc etc?
We at the units who are faced with the consequences of these decisions should be putting pressure on our GMs and NSL bigwigs to reverse it. I know we at Heathrow are.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
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From: uk
Gonzo,
Just reacting to what the college instructors said to you,from the other end of the Federation.
It seems that LL has found way of sourcing the ''Creme de la Creme'' from the college.However these people,as you say have have naff all time on R/T and no experience of Radar and overall ATC.
Sure you can teach them ''Cleared to Land'' at LL,but they haven't gained any experience seeing other more complex and varied units....
Agree 100% with what you say.Wait til you get them with no App Radar, or Procedural App rating.
Just reacting to what the college instructors said to you,from the other end of the Federation.
It seems that LL has found way of sourcing the ''Creme de la Creme''
from the college.However these people,as you say have have naff all time on R/T and no experience of Radar and overall ATC. Sure you can teach them ''Cleared to Land'' at LL,but they haven't gained any experience seeing other more complex and varied units....
Agree 100% with what you say.Wait til you get them with no App Radar, or Procedural App rating.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: uk
Gonzo,
Yeah with you 100%,
We have to do an in-house procedural course,cos it ain 't done at the college.That because all Nats units are Radar only:Ha Ha ok:
It used to be that with LL you had to validate somewhere else,before being let loose down there.Not a bad scheme if you ask me.
Need a 45 year old has been...
Yeah with you 100%,
We have to do an in-house procedural course,cos it ain 't done at the college.That because all Nats units are Radar only:Ha Ha ok:
It used to be that with LL you had to validate somewhere else,before being let loose down there.Not a bad scheme if you ask me.
Need a 45 year old has been...
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: Poole
Well when you see the guys at the college getting Band 5 pay for being a ''Teecha'',when we are slogging our guts out operationally then I think a low opinion of them is justified.
You too could be a Band 5 "Teecha". No more need to slog your guts out operationally, just sit back & count the cash.
Try it. You might be surprised when you discover that it is not an easy option.
Even when I started back in 1966, when the coal face grade was ATCO 3, Instructors were ATCO 2 and thus paid a premium for imparting the knowledge & skills to the sudents.
Stirring over. I'll shuffle back into the retirement home.
Reg
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 530
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Fly Through
Hmmmm yet they won't recruit experienced controllers from outside NATS to help.............unless you're happy to go to Aberdeen. Sorry thread creep.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: FG11
As a, soon to be, TATC all this talk of falling validation rates is rather depressing. Do they give you another chance?
As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.
As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 5
From: South of England
Originally Posted by Quincy M.E.
As a, soon to be, TATC all this talk of falling validation rates is rather depressing. Do they give you another chance?
As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.
As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.
You have a perfectly good chance of passing but a polite description of the current system is that you will need to "hit the ground running". If you have little or no previous aviation experience, you will have a lot of learning to do, remembering that it is all pertinent, not just theory learning for its own sake. The criticism from college instructors and the unit OJTIs is that trainees now have the bare minimum training whereas they used to have wider experience before going to their first unit. This gave the benefit of broader appreciation and confidence; however, these latter attributes apparently do not appear in the beancounters' tickboxes.
Good luck.
2 s