RIS and RAS again!!!!!!!

[DFC]

Originally Posted by Dont tell um pike

"Standard separation shall be provided between any IFR flights in receipt of a service by an approach control unit."
but they've requested a RIS which is what they are getting , so traffic info only till avioding action is requested then upgrade to a RAS.
Grey area anyone ?
DTUP

Last time I checked, Approach Control Units were called that because they did not have radar. Those that had the new fangle radar thingie were called Approach Radar.

Very difficult for a procedural unit to give a RIS in the first place!

As for duty of care, if the CAA require IFR flights to operate in class G when the ICAO requirements are for class E airspace to be provided then the CAA would hold the can.

Give me class G anyday! Far better service available there compared to class D.

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by DFC

Last time I checked, Approach Control Units were called that because they did not have radar. Those that had the new fangle radar thingie were called Approach Radar.

MATS Pt 1 S3 Ch1

1.1 An approach control unit shall provide:
a) approach control service with or without the aid of radar;
b) flight information service;
c) alerting service.

[tubthumper]

This subject keeps coming up, time and time again, and every time the same level of ambiguity and scope for confusion is demonstrated. Isn't it about time that the whole thing was re-thought from the ground up (no pun intended)? After all, this isn't some little known subtlety of ATC that only applies to one or two units, this is fundamental, with the emphasis most definitely on the mental.

[safety case]

Tubthumper, I think what the original poster O W Z meant was exactly that. The whole thing wants a thourough looking at ,from the air pilot to the MATS pt 1.
Generally speaking the two documents give differing advice/instructions depending on where you are sitting. In the ukclass G airspace VFR are not provided with separation from other a/c be they VFR or IFR. TFC info is passed and thats it mate,you're on your own.
If you happen to be on a RIS , again IFR or VFR ,TFC is passed and once again it's up to you to take the necessary avoiding action because the controller will not give it( as per the air pilot)
Now this unit will have to seek to achieve 3miles/1000' between RAS and identified RIS/FIS be they IFR or VFR and also 5miles/3000' between unidentified TFC.
Why wont SRG finally admit that the days of sitting on the fence, letting units make or interpret their own policy is counter productive and ultimately will lead to a total loss of respect for the supposed ruling body.
Why the MATS pt 1 wants a severe going over ( apart from the above) example. Can anyone seriously imagine a fully laden B747 inbound to Heathrow adopting the bog off procedure in the event of a radio failure?

[chevvron]

If only our dear CAA complied with ICAO Doc 4444 Chap 8 para 8.11, we wouldn't need to keep having this stupid debate.
The ref describes the 'Use of radar in the Flight Information Service', and describes service to be provided as virtually the same as RAS.

[Flybywyre]

TFC is passed and once again it's up to you to take the necessary avoiding action because the controller will not give it( as per the air pilot)

And should an incident occur because of this, it is quite likely that a court may rule that the controller had a "duty of care" to give it (avoiding action)

[safety case]

Flybywire
If that is the case then change the AIP and MATS pt 1 and make it the same standard of service in CAS as outside

[OCEAN WUN ZERO]

FLY BY WIRE
Sorry butI aint got time to wait for the powers that be to sort this out. I Am not going to jail if one of my troops let the blips merge so local action has been taken..........

[Flybywyre]

Fair comment and I would have thought a sensible course of action ..........
FBW

[DFC]

Thanks Bookworm.

Chevron,

You are totally correct. No other country in Europe has this confusion and most provide excellent services using a range of ICAO airspace classes to clearly define to everyone exactly what the service provided is, the weather minima and the pilot responsibilities.

It is only the UK that causes the confusion.

The dangerous bit is that most foreign crews do not realise that they are not in receipt of a control service and do not understand the whole RIS/RAS service.

If UK controllers and pilots have problems then there is no hope for the foreign pilot making a 1 off trip to the UK.

Regards,

DFC

[chevvron]

The point I've always tried to make; ask (say) an Italian commercial pilot if he want Radar Advisory or Radar Information and think does he actually know what they are?