ATC Jobs at threat ??
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The amount of corrupt coding in our current systems presents a risk greater than the rate of human error. This is with a comparitively simple system. The exponential leap in technology and reliability required leaves me willing to place large bets on this..... anyone?
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Gentlemen, gentlemen.
You really are betraying your generation. You guys in the pointy end increasingly put your lives into the hands of these accursed machines and ATCOs continually benefit from new computer tools, yet you can't bring yourselves to think that there may be quantam leaps in computer knowledge in the future. Admittedly, I don't think a human-free ATM system is in sight (I,too, have had enough glitches to last a life time) but the technology is inexorably moving forward.
This discussion is about where we are moving, not about thinking that holds true for the current.
I think we should move on to a discourse on what we're going to do with all our free time
You really are betraying your generation. You guys in the pointy end increasingly put your lives into the hands of these accursed machines and ATCOs continually benefit from new computer tools, yet you can't bring yourselves to think that there may be quantam leaps in computer knowledge in the future. Admittedly, I don't think a human-free ATM system is in sight (I,too, have had enough glitches to last a life time) but the technology is inexorably moving forward.
This discussion is about where we are moving, not about thinking that holds true for the current.
I think we should move on to a discourse on what we're going to do with all our free time
Ohcirrej
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I'm waiting for the day I can log into work from home..............of course the 100 inch Plasma TV I'm going to require to do the job will be on the company's dime.
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Hmmm
at work today in the London TMA. Aircraft turning off the SIDS early due to weather; Aircraft unable to undertake proper holding, due weather; several runway changes with one A/C stating that if they had to hold for more than 5 minutes they would either divert or call a PAN.
Too many A/C arriving at once, therefore tactically suspending inbound standing agreements (a common occurrence)
I think the ATCOs job is safe for a very long time, automation may assist, but it will be tens of years before it takes over, if ever IMHO.
However, as Jerricho says - working from home; possibly utilising one of these £499 S band thingys you can buy nowadays sounds like a good idea - but only when all aircraft are Mose S fitted!!!
at work today in the London TMA. Aircraft turning off the SIDS early due to weather; Aircraft unable to undertake proper holding, due weather; several runway changes with one A/C stating that if they had to hold for more than 5 minutes they would either divert or call a PAN.
Too many A/C arriving at once, therefore tactically suspending inbound standing agreements (a common occurrence)
I think the ATCOs job is safe for a very long time, automation may assist, but it will be tens of years before it takes over, if ever IMHO.
However, as Jerricho says - working from home; possibly utilising one of these £499 S band thingys you can buy nowadays sounds like a good idea - but only when all aircraft are Mose S fitted!!!
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So assuming there will be no or limtied 'retrofitting' of mode-S gear into airframes, and that we regularly see 30+ old airframes floating about the sky; it's at least 30 years away?
Phew, wen't into panic mode until I thought about it... Automation is awesome when things are on the rails; however when sh!ts are trumps it just doesn't work.
I hope it does, cause quite frankly the current 'technology' that must be manipulated to keep up when sh!ts are trumps is a significant detriment to the system.
In Oz, we do more 'system manipulation' in bad weather than talking to aircraft; quite distracting really, core business needs to be better considered in such conditions. Planners would help us; but we don't use then when the system is "on the rails", so no one knows how to use them when sh!ts are trumps, so it's generally a hinderance not an assistance.
Phew, wen't into panic mode until I thought about it... Automation is awesome when things are on the rails; however when sh!ts are trumps it just doesn't work.
I hope it does, cause quite frankly the current 'technology' that must be manipulated to keep up when sh!ts are trumps is a significant detriment to the system.
In Oz, we do more 'system manipulation' in bad weather than talking to aircraft; quite distracting really, core business needs to be better considered in such conditions. Planners would help us; but we don't use then when the system is "on the rails", so no one knows how to use them when sh!ts are trumps, so it's generally a hinderance not an assistance.
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Yes, but think how much money could be saved if NATS could get rid of atcos. The fact that it may not be safe or expeditious is neither here nor there!.
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Having worked in ATC for more than 40 years - and currently working on automation in ATC - I can say that there has not been an automated system yet invented that comes anywhere near an ATCO. No computer can "invent" a non-standard 500ft separation to avoid the crisis when all conventional methods fail.
We may eventually go to one pilot at some stage but you will never get rid of the controller so long as demand for flights is at current or increased levels. On a daily basis, controllers perform miracles in some of the most crowded airspace - and they always will.
ATCO1962 get real! Was 1962 the year you joined or left ATC? You will have noticed that the Torygraph article mentions ATCO intervention several times, so getting rid of them is not on the cards. Was it published on April 1st?
We may eventually go to one pilot at some stage but you will never get rid of the controller so long as demand for flights is at current or increased levels. On a daily basis, controllers perform miracles in some of the most crowded airspace - and they always will.
ATCO1962 get real! Was 1962 the year you joined or left ATC? You will have noticed that the Torygraph article mentions ATCO intervention several times, so getting rid of them is not on the cards. Was it published on April 1st?
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Hi Slicker,
Yep, I'm real and I've been a pit-face controller since 1981. Read my posts again and I trust you'll see I'm firmly in the camp that says, "Not in our lifetime".
However, TCAS uses computer sensing to let pilots know how to avoid each other; it's only a small step to allow the autopilot to intervene without human input. Take those technologies a bit (OK, a lot) further and apply a few thousand researchers/university students to the task of mining the thinking that goes into a good terminal controller's decision making and then get that same lot to factor in all sorts of variables (WX, emergencies, equipment outages,etc), and you can almost see the future in neon lights.
Sorry, guys, sooner or later, we're only going to have systems engineers or whatever they'll call them then. Don't expect too many live bodies up the front either!
In the meantime, I'll enjoy moving you through my airspace the conventional way, UFN.
Yep, I'm real and I've been a pit-face controller since 1981. Read my posts again and I trust you'll see I'm firmly in the camp that says, "Not in our lifetime".
However, TCAS uses computer sensing to let pilots know how to avoid each other; it's only a small step to allow the autopilot to intervene without human input. Take those technologies a bit (OK, a lot) further and apply a few thousand researchers/university students to the task of mining the thinking that goes into a good terminal controller's decision making and then get that same lot to factor in all sorts of variables (WX, emergencies, equipment outages,etc), and you can almost see the future in neon lights.
Sorry, guys, sooner or later, we're only going to have systems engineers or whatever they'll call them then. Don't expect too many live bodies up the front either!
In the meantime, I'll enjoy moving you through my airspace the conventional way, UFN.
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ATCO1962
TCAS has helped cause and or make incidents worse than they could have been as well as help out in short term resolution
We have computers that are capable of taking instructions and flying A/C, yet any passenger operation in this manner is many many years away.
Any computerised system that makes the decisions is even further away, thnalfully.
There will an increase in computer aids, but not a total take over.
What is worrying is that future ATCOs will not have the training and therefore the skills to go back to real controlling when the computer programmes designed to assist (medium range alerts/ planning etc) fail.
TCAS has helped cause and or make incidents worse than they could have been as well as help out in short term resolution
We have computers that are capable of taking instructions and flying A/C, yet any passenger operation in this manner is many many years away.
Any computerised system that makes the decisions is even further away, thnalfully.
There will an increase in computer aids, but not a total take over.
What is worrying is that future ATCOs will not have the training and therefore the skills to go back to real controlling when the computer programmes designed to assist (medium range alerts/ planning etc) fail.
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I'm 19 years old and have applied to become an ATCO in South Africa. I am playing all the sims I can find to learn how to control properly. I've gotten quite profficient at it and am quite excited to start this as a career. The fact is that we now have all the instrumentation to "help" us control but the fact is that we still get trained to control properly. there can always be a power outage (Especially in Cape Town), loss of radar or some catastrophe which the computer OBVIOUSLY cannot "help" with and good ol' ATC-ing comes into play. What's gonna happen if we have ATM, and such occurences occur? Anti-virus programs say they are virus-proof, they we still update them. There's ALWAYS a loophole, and in ATC, you cannot afford one!
G
G
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atcSA
When I said 'real controlling' or as you said it 'control properly' it was not meant as a slight on future ATCOs. As things such as Mode S become commonplace, basic skills may be forgotten or even not taught in depth.
Using Mode S as one small example; the Vertical Stack List is a great tool, but in ten years time, when it is taken for granted, how effectively will a newly trained ATCO be able to manage a stack using flight progress strips if the need arises?
Not a dig by any means but I am sure my colleagues at Swanwick, the En Route controllers, will admit that they are not as proficient at holding as they could be.... this is not their fault, it is something they seldom practice, and is not a primary task for them - far from it, but the experiences they have when it comes to stack management are going to become more relevant to TMA controllers as technology takes over.
Take away that technology for whatever reason, and the ATCO who was not trained as thoroughly in stack management as ones who have gone before will struggle.
It's not a case of being trained properly - as we become more dependant on technology the basic training will change to reflect it -(why have the technology otherwise), the worry is that we become too dependant on that technology and forget basic skills - quite a relevant worry when ATC companies are out to make money (or cut down costs)... the training syllabus is bound to be changed to keep costs to a reasonable amount.
Good luck with your training BTW
When I said 'real controlling' or as you said it 'control properly' it was not meant as a slight on future ATCOs. As things such as Mode S become commonplace, basic skills may be forgotten or even not taught in depth.
Using Mode S as one small example; the Vertical Stack List is a great tool, but in ten years time, when it is taken for granted, how effectively will a newly trained ATCO be able to manage a stack using flight progress strips if the need arises?
Not a dig by any means but I am sure my colleagues at Swanwick, the En Route controllers, will admit that they are not as proficient at holding as they could be.... this is not their fault, it is something they seldom practice, and is not a primary task for them - far from it, but the experiences they have when it comes to stack management are going to become more relevant to TMA controllers as technology takes over.
Take away that technology for whatever reason, and the ATCO who was not trained as thoroughly in stack management as ones who have gone before will struggle.
It's not a case of being trained properly - as we become more dependant on technology the basic training will change to reflect it -(why have the technology otherwise), the worry is that we become too dependant on that technology and forget basic skills - quite a relevant worry when ATC companies are out to make money (or cut down costs)... the training syllabus is bound to be changed to keep costs to a reasonable amount.
Good luck with your training BTW
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As a pilot (oh no) I always thought that Talking Traffic Lights (ATC) should have been called 'Air Traffic Facilitation Officers'.
The Air Traffic CONTROL bit has always worried me.
Lets workshop this - I am prepared to change my views - get the butchers paper out and form some syndicates. I am chairing the Douglas Bader Syndicates for Legless Pilots.
Report back next week.
The Air Traffic CONTROL bit has always worried me.
Lets workshop this - I am prepared to change my views - get the butchers paper out and form some syndicates. I am chairing the Douglas Bader Syndicates for Legless Pilots.
Report back next week.
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VH-GRUMPY
Just you continue to worry about controlling your one aircraft between the two pilots it seems to take, us 'Air Traffic Facilitation Officers' will worry about all the others ones we as individuals, have to look after at once, as well as yours
!!!
Just you continue to worry about controlling your one aircraft between the two pilots it seems to take, us 'Air Traffic Facilitation Officers' will worry about all the others ones we as individuals, have to look after at once, as well as yours
!!!
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AnotherThing...
Thanx for clearing that up. Unfortunately what you say is true. If only ALL controllers kept on honing their skills in simulators (on both old and new systems ) to keep these long lost methods of controlling at hand, in situations that might arrise.
Oh well, I will try every aspect when I start.
Thanx for the wishes.
G
Thanx for clearing that up. Unfortunately what you say is true. If only ALL controllers kept on honing their skills in simulators (on both old and new systems
) to keep these long lost methods of controlling at hand, in situations that might arrise.Oh well, I will try every aspect when I start.
Thanx for the wishes.
G
More than just an ATCO
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VH-Grumpy's profile
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only):
PPL in 79
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only):
Stopped flying when no longer tax deductible
Really qualified to make comments on this then
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only):
PPL in 79
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only):
Stopped flying when no longer tax deductible
Really qualified to make comments on this then
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Reading an article in this month's "Flying" magazine about Pilots who are nervous about using ATC controlled airports I noted the following , and I quote;
"Pilots who are really apprehensive and landing at an airport with a control tower for fear of being seen doing something wrong can take some hope from NASA's small airport transportation system (SATS). Fully implemented, the system could employ an Airport management module (AMM) described as a "computer chip on a stick" at smaller airports to act as an automated tower to prioritise and sequence aircraft based on their ADS-B position altitude and speed"
There we are then...the writing is on the wall
"Pilots who are really apprehensive and landing at an airport with a control tower for fear of being seen doing something wrong can take some hope from NASA's small airport transportation system (SATS). Fully implemented, the system could employ an Airport management module (AMM) described as a "computer chip on a stick" at smaller airports to act as an automated tower to prioritise and sequence aircraft based on their ADS-B position altitude and speed"
There we are then...the writing is on the wall
Last edited by flybymike; 12th May 2006 at 12:21.
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Not trying to defend an ATCOs position here just for the hell of it, but such a system as you mention above, Mike, cannot take into consideration reduction in speeds on finals; changes in speed when an aircraft suddenly turns into wind to land and slows down; how a pilot handles his A/C with regards to speed, and a whole host of other variables!
The system in the 'Flyer' magazine sounds very much like it is using a mathematical model to determine landing sequence... what happens if a pilot is flying a jet on or around min clean to see the handling characterisitcs, then decides to throttle up again?
Unfortunately, pure logic, which is what the above system must be using, cannot take into account enough variables at this point in time... the ability to think and reason is not there yet for computers.
Like many of the inventions we used to see on Tommorrows World, the one above, in my opinion, will either quietly go away, or take tens of years to develop properly.
The system in the 'Flyer' magazine sounds very much like it is using a mathematical model to determine landing sequence... what happens if a pilot is flying a jet on or around min clean to see the handling characterisitcs, then decides to throttle up again?
Unfortunately, pure logic, which is what the above system must be using, cannot take into account enough variables at this point in time... the ability to think and reason is not there yet for computers.
Like many of the inventions we used to see on Tommorrows World, the one above, in my opinion, will either quietly go away, or take tens of years to develop properly.
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Anotherthing, Scott is right. ADS-B is cleverer than you might think! Further information given here.
http://faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news...m?newsKey=4172
http://faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news...m?newsKey=4172
