Cardiff ATC
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Cardiff ATC
REF: C1260/06 From: 2006-Apr-01 Sat 00:01 To: 2006-Sep-30 Sat 23:59
ICAO: EGFF CARDIFF
ALL TRAINING FLIGHTS MADE BY ACFT WITHIN THAT PORTION OF N864 AND L9 BTN EXMOR TALGA AMMAN AND ALVIN FL165 AND BELOW MUST OBTAIN A SLOT PRIOR TO ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE. SLOTS WILL BE ISSUED BY TELEPHONE ON 01446 712564 AS FOLLOWS : EXAM FLIGHTS MAY REQUEST SLOTS UP TO 48HRS IN ADVANCE. ALL OTHER FLIGHTS MUST REQUEST SLOTS BY TELEPHONE ON THE MORNING OF THE FLIGHT.
Discuss.......
Personally, I shudder to think what Cardiff ATC are going to come up with next.
ICAO: EGFF CARDIFF
ALL TRAINING FLIGHTS MADE BY ACFT WITHIN THAT PORTION OF N864 AND L9 BTN EXMOR TALGA AMMAN AND ALVIN FL165 AND BELOW MUST OBTAIN A SLOT PRIOR TO ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE. SLOTS WILL BE ISSUED BY TELEPHONE ON 01446 712564 AS FOLLOWS : EXAM FLIGHTS MAY REQUEST SLOTS UP TO 48HRS IN ADVANCE. ALL OTHER FLIGHTS MUST REQUEST SLOTS BY TELEPHONE ON THE MORNING OF THE FLIGHT.
Discuss.......
Personally, I shudder to think what Cardiff ATC are going to come up with next.
I doubt it is due to with Cardiff ATC, probably airport managment. I'm not sure but I think Cardiff ATC maybe be upgrading there systems which might be why they have this NOTAM in place.
I'm sure Flower will answer your question when she reads this thread, she always says Cardiff ATC are more than happy to provide a service to training flights.
I'm sure Flower will answer your question when she reads this thread, she always says Cardiff ATC are more than happy to provide a service to training flights.
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Stone Cold - this will have nothing to do with the airport management as it involves IFR trainers not just into Cardiff but into Bristol, Filton and possibly Exeter too. This is a pure ATC problem.
Personally I don't think I've seen anythng so ridiculous in all my life. People booking training slots at other airports are now going to have to get an airways slot at the same time! In short - Cardiff are trying to control training and more importantly, associated revenue at other units. That is unacceptable.
Unit management either wants their a**e kicked and told to get on with the job or, if they can't handle it, give it back to an area unit and stop trying to be one themselves.
Personally I don't think I've seen anythng so ridiculous in all my life. People booking training slots at other airports are now going to have to get an airways slot at the same time! In short - Cardiff are trying to control training and more importantly, associated revenue at other units. That is unacceptable.
Unit management either wants their a**e kicked and told to get on with the job or, if they can't handle it, give it back to an area unit and stop trying to be one themselves.
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Booking training at two airfields with a coincident airways slot will be tricky.
Presumably BADIM & WOTAN joiners leaving at or before ALVIN for Bristol, Gloucester and Filton won't be affected anyway as Bristol provide the service?
Presumably BADIM & WOTAN joiners leaving at or before ALVIN for Bristol, Gloucester and Filton won't be affected anyway as Bristol provide the service?
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Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
Unit management either wants their a**e kicked and told to get on with the job or, if they can't handle it, give it back to an area unit and stop trying to be one themselves.
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Cardiff are responsible for more airspace than Manchester sub-centre when that first opened. They move a large amount of traffic in a professional and expeditious fashion and they make my job at Swanwick a lot easier. Would you agree that it would be totally ridiculous to impede scheduled traffic in the event that the airspace was saturated with training traffic?
Traffic handling capacity is a finite resource and one method of matching supply and demand is the requirement to obtain prior permission [get a slot].
Reality check....ATC is an expensive business....exactly where does the revenue come from.....does it come from the PA28 clogging up the hold for an hour?.....or from the heavy aluminium tube that pays a landing charge and a couple of hundred passenger taxes and thereby keeps lots of people in work?
The days of the big un-restricted freebies are gone.
By the way....does the sched driver mind being vectored out of his/her way [with the associated fuel burn penalty] just to fly round some spam-can in the hold?
Traffic handling capacity is a finite resource and one method of matching supply and demand is the requirement to obtain prior permission [get a slot].
Reality check....ATC is an expensive business....exactly where does the revenue come from.....does it come from the PA28 clogging up the hold for an hour?.....or from the heavy aluminium tube that pays a landing charge and a couple of hundred passenger taxes and thereby keeps lots of people in work?
The days of the big un-restricted freebies are gone.
By the way....does the sched driver mind being vectored out of his/her way [with the associated fuel burn penalty] just to fly round some spam-can in the hold?
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Originally Posted by 055166k
By the way....does the sched driver mind being vectored out of his/her way [with the associated fuel burn penalty] just to fly round some spam-can in the hold?
Spamcan Defender by name, spamcan defender by nature
Spamcan
P.S as an ATCO, i've gotta agree with you (Just keep that bit quiet though)
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Originally Posted by Spitoon
Or give it to BRS who've always seemed to me to be able to handle traffic properly anyway.....well, certainly in the last few years.
Hello Chilli, long time no speak, how are the frozen wastelands north of Daventry?
055166k - "they make my job at Swanick a lot easier". Well you know what they say, 'what the Rhoose giveth, the Lulsgate taketh away.'
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As I'm currently seeing more of the Physio therapy department at my local hospital than my workplace I can't give a definite answer as to what exactly has happened .
Last year we handled more traffic than ever before , this year we know we have at least a 25% increase on that which we handled last year with no more staff to do it with ( although that is trying to be dealt with), several overloads happened last year all of which were extremely nasty and as they were shared around the unit and between various levels of experience could not be put down to the ATCOs involved but the sheer volume of traffic going through the sector. In each overload there were a large number of en route trainers.
It may surprise some to know who work either at units nearby Cardiff or have moved on that every hour we have a large influx of trainers going through the airspace, they are low and slow often taking up several Flight Levels. EXMOR it is common to have maybe 4 trainers at the same time whilst trying to deal with all the inbounds and outbounds from Cardiff, Bristol and Exeter.
It was decided to look at all procedures to see how we could better deal with them and ensure that the chances of overloads are reduced, the idea of flowing Trainers through the sector has been around for a long time, we could put this through Brussels of course and get them to put a flow restriction on or we could just at least try to ensure that we regulate the trainers at each Beacon at any time.
The airspace is controlled by just One ATCO, the same airspace at Manchester is controlled by several, so we decide we want to make sure the ATCO doesn't get overloaded this year, it is like any procedure fluid, should we gain more staffing and the responsibilities are shared then a new procedure can be looked at again.
Before people criticise perhaps they should check the facts, one person has only so much capacity.
Last year we handled more traffic than ever before , this year we know we have at least a 25% increase on that which we handled last year with no more staff to do it with ( although that is trying to be dealt with), several overloads happened last year all of which were extremely nasty and as they were shared around the unit and between various levels of experience could not be put down to the ATCOs involved but the sheer volume of traffic going through the sector. In each overload there were a large number of en route trainers.
It may surprise some to know who work either at units nearby Cardiff or have moved on that every hour we have a large influx of trainers going through the airspace, they are low and slow often taking up several Flight Levels. EXMOR it is common to have maybe 4 trainers at the same time whilst trying to deal with all the inbounds and outbounds from Cardiff, Bristol and Exeter.
It was decided to look at all procedures to see how we could better deal with them and ensure that the chances of overloads are reduced, the idea of flowing Trainers through the sector has been around for a long time, we could put this through Brussels of course and get them to put a flow restriction on or we could just at least try to ensure that we regulate the trainers at each Beacon at any time.
The airspace is controlled by just One ATCO, the same airspace at Manchester is controlled by several, so we decide we want to make sure the ATCO doesn't get overloaded this year, it is like any procedure fluid, should we gain more staffing and the responsibilities are shared then a new procedure can be looked at again.
Before people criticise perhaps they should check the facts, one person has only so much capacity.
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The really sad and worrying thing is the ignorance of the realities of pilot training by some in ATC. Until the Multi-Pilot License is introduced, those flights in "PA-28's", in this case light twins but "spam cans" nevertheless, are the final stages of pilot training before the candidate becomes a commercial pilot. To keep the airlines supplied with "heavy aluminium tube" drivers these flights have to take place in and out of controlled airspace. The CAA insists on it.
And by the way, Cardiff ATC have long since dispensed with the the "PA28 clogging up the hold for an hour?....." They accept no light aircraft for training.
And by the way, Cardiff ATC have long since dispensed with the the "PA28 clogging up the hold for an hour?....." They accept no light aircraft for training.
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Helloflower, heard you were on the skive, er sorry, Tom'n'Mick for a bit, explains why I haven't heard your dulcet tones other end of the dog.
Your boss may have other ideas about how to "re-distribute" the manpower available to him rather than having increases in staff numbers. You might want to ask him his views about LARS? Anyhoo, where would you put another five ATCO's in your tiny building. Now, if you moved across the Severn estuary of course............
Your boss may have other ideas about how to "re-distribute" the manpower available to him rather than having increases in staff numbers. You might want to ask him his views about LARS? Anyhoo, where would you put another five ATCO's in your tiny building. Now, if you moved across the Severn estuary of course............
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Standard Noise,
the one joy of not being able to sit for very long is to distance myself from the politics of it all, although I must admit i really miss the controlling bit. When i get back, hopefully within the next 4 weeks I will have loads to catch up on no doubt.
Nasib,
Cardiff ATC didn't ditch any training, Beacon training still very much goes on but Cardiff International Airport Limited have put strict restrictions on whom they will allow to train at their Airport, that decision was not made by ATC and as it is their airport we have to abide by it. The flowing of trainers is not preventing any training by students either just attempting to regulate the flow at beacons, should also mean you are more likely to get the level you requested.
the one joy of not being able to sit for very long is to distance myself from the politics of it all, although I must admit i really miss the controlling bit. When i get back, hopefully within the next 4 weeks I will have loads to catch up on no doubt.
Nasib,
Cardiff ATC didn't ditch any training, Beacon training still very much goes on but Cardiff International Airport Limited have put strict restrictions on whom they will allow to train at their Airport, that decision was not made by ATC and as it is their airport we have to abide by it. The flowing of trainers is not preventing any training by students either just attempting to regulate the flow at beacons, should also mean you are more likely to get the level you requested.
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Nasib,
From CAA doc CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part One.
Flight Categories:
A Aircraft in emergency
B Search and rescue
C Royal Flights
D Head of Government
E Flight Check/Calibrator
Normal Flights
Z Training and non-standard flights.
take it up with the CAA if you feel that strongly. Not ATC's fault!
From CAA doc CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part One.
Flight Categories:
A Aircraft in emergency
B Search and rescue
C Royal Flights
D Head of Government
E Flight Check/Calibrator
Normal Flights
Z Training and non-standard flights.
take it up with the CAA if you feel that strongly. Not ATC's fault!
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I was one of the lucky ones not to have an overload last summer, but, was also about when two of them happened and its not very nice.
Just to continue what some other people have said, it is regular to have several trainers in the system. As an example, on my last shift, there were two a/c filed to join at exmor, one routing Exmor / BCN / OF, the other, Exmor / Tinan / BIA (I think). They were both passed to me by Yeovliton 4 miles apart at FL60 and 65 respectively. ( The one at 60 might need to check their quandrantals! )
At the same time, there was a trng flight departing Brizzel, routeing BCN / Alvin / GST requesting FL90 and a C130 in the Cardiff hold descending FL100.
None of these aircraft want headings, the idea i would presume of training with reporting points is to actually use them (!), so, I level seperate them. Base level for most of their routes is either FL65 or FL75. So, One exmor Join Climbs FL80, The other to FL70, The brizzel Dep gets 90 C130 in the hold at FL100.
With a crap load of a/c outside of CAS playing perfectly by the rules and not on frequency and being too lazy / ignorant to think we might want to speak to them, so, the proper flights are being vectored all over the sky to get below the hold and the overflight trainers, and keeping their turns inside CAS against the unknowns outside. Easterly winds, so Bristol Inbounds from the north are still getting used to their new descent profiles / level restrictions which doesn't give them many extra miles to play with, especially when I lob in a wedge of speed control.
It was quite good fun, but, the lesser priority flights ( Sorry trainers but thats you (and u r also not revenue making - damn freeloaders (thats a joke))) were creating massive bottle necks in the system.
The best way to flow this situation so that everybody gets an acceptable service is to restrict the lesser categories of flight. As Gonzo quotes from the Mats part 1, thats the route which has been followed. I am sure training schools and trainees alike do not agree with it, but, its the rules!!
As far as restricting Filtons earnings potential, maybe the aircraft who wish to train at Filton can route outside of controlled airspace coming into you, and fly airways on the return flight instead? (subject to slot of course ).
Anybody free calling wishing to join without a slot (certainly when I am plugged in) will be turned away. This measure has been put in for the safety of the airways users (thats all the people that contribute here whether they be crew, pax, or anything else)
Sorry guys, SAFETY FIRST.
/end rant
TIO
Just to continue what some other people have said, it is regular to have several trainers in the system. As an example, on my last shift, there were two a/c filed to join at exmor, one routing Exmor / BCN / OF, the other, Exmor / Tinan / BIA (I think). They were both passed to me by Yeovliton 4 miles apart at FL60 and 65 respectively. ( The one at 60 might need to check their quandrantals! )
At the same time, there was a trng flight departing Brizzel, routeing BCN / Alvin / GST requesting FL90 and a C130 in the Cardiff hold descending FL100.
None of these aircraft want headings, the idea i would presume of training with reporting points is to actually use them (!), so, I level seperate them. Base level for most of their routes is either FL65 or FL75. So, One exmor Join Climbs FL80, The other to FL70, The brizzel Dep gets 90 C130 in the hold at FL100.
With a crap load of a/c outside of CAS playing perfectly by the rules and not on frequency and being too lazy / ignorant to think we might want to speak to them, so, the proper flights are being vectored all over the sky to get below the hold and the overflight trainers, and keeping their turns inside CAS against the unknowns outside. Easterly winds, so Bristol Inbounds from the north are still getting used to their new descent profiles / level restrictions which doesn't give them many extra miles to play with, especially when I lob in a wedge of speed control.
It was quite good fun, but, the lesser priority flights ( Sorry trainers but thats you (and u r also not revenue making - damn freeloaders (thats a joke))) were creating massive bottle necks in the system.
The best way to flow this situation so that everybody gets an acceptable service is to restrict the lesser categories of flight. As Gonzo quotes from the Mats part 1, thats the route which has been followed. I am sure training schools and trainees alike do not agree with it, but, its the rules!!
As far as restricting Filtons earnings potential, maybe the aircraft who wish to train at Filton can route outside of controlled airspace coming into you, and fly airways on the return flight instead? (subject to slot of course
).Anybody free calling wishing to join without a slot (certainly when I am plugged in) will be turned away. This measure has been put in for the safety of the airways users (thats all the people that contribute here whether they be crew, pax, or anything else)
Sorry guys, SAFETY FIRST.
/end rant
TIO
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Originally Posted by Turn It Off
As Gonzo quotes from the Mats part 1, thats the route which has been followed. I am sure training schools and trainees alike do not agree with it, but, its the rules!!
Dare I suggest that if you delve into the background it could even be possible that Cardiff are trying to operate in direct contravention of the charter that NATS must operate within, as laid down by the government? (I don't know for definite - just saying it's possible).
maybe the aircraft who wish to train at Filton can route outside of controlled airspace, and fly airways on the return flight instead? (subject to slot of course ).
).
Anybody free calling wishing to join without a slot (certainly when I am plugged in) will be turned away.
This measure has been put in for the safety of the airways users (thats all the people that contribute here whether they be crew, pax, or anything else)
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"submit a maximum flow rate to Flow Control for the lower levels."
I know that issue has been looked at, then no doubt the training aircraft would file at higher levels. These are obviously training flights as well Chilli not normal flights you only have to look at their flight plans, they always return to their departure aerodrome without landing with several aerodromes filed enroute for training
As I said I'm not at work at the moment so don't know the full background of the new procedure but like Turn It off I was also lucky not to have an overload last year although I several times came very close to it, but have been around in the aftermath of them, in everyone there was an excess of training flights, they are not being denied access which is all the charter states they are simply being flowed.
If you had been in our approach room last year you would equally be trying to get something sorted, it wasn't nice.
I know that issue has been looked at, then no doubt the training aircraft would file at higher levels. These are obviously training flights as well Chilli not normal flights you only have to look at their flight plans, they always return to their departure aerodrome without landing with several aerodromes filed enroute for training
As I said I'm not at work at the moment so don't know the full background of the new procedure but like Turn It off I was also lucky not to have an overload last year although I several times came very close to it, but have been around in the aftermath of them, in everyone there was an excess of training flights, they are not being denied access which is all the charter states they are simply being flowed.
If you had been in our approach room last year you would equally be trying to get something sorted, it wasn't nice.
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Originally Posted by flower
I know that issue has been looked at, then no doubt the training aircraft would file at higher levels.
These are obviously training flights as well Chilli not normal flights you only have to look at their flight plans, they always return to their departure aerodrome without landing with several aerodromes filed enroute for training
they are not being denied access which is all the charter states they are simply being flowed.
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One could also argue that if they are not declaring themselves as training flights, they are as much in contravention.
Does the ANO/AIP stipulate training flights must declare themselves as such?
Does the ANO/AIP stipulate training flights must declare themselves as such?