Night staff shortages at NERC?
More than just an ATCO
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250, been there, done it. Maastricht DECO sectors also run with 3 staff for two positions.Rortunately if a trainee was present it was only as a U/T, so it never came down to having to rely on him/her to keep the sectors open.
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By contract they aren't supposed to work us more than two hours on position without a break, but if they do all we can do is file a grienvance. There is also the bit in there that they can exceed that for operational necessity, and they they have to pay you for a missed meal break. Your work laws are MUCH better over there, but the job is still fun if left alone by the suits, which is becoming less and less likely these days...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
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Terminal Control have closed a sector tonight for three hours due to staffing problems. It's becoming commonplace now.
Closed sectors at TC are certainly not commonplace.
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250
As far as accepting traffic when suitably qualified staff were on position this, if it happened, seems to depend on the crew on duty. Due to an oversight, an ACT was transmitted in error to CLN for an EGLL inbound. Immediate response was an irrate call from LACC demanding to know if we were aware of the NOTAM and its contents.
As far as accepting traffic when suitably qualified staff were on position this, if it happened, seems to depend on the crew on duty. Due to an oversight, an ACT was transmitted in error to CLN for an EGLL inbound. Immediate response was an irrate call from LACC demanding to know if we were aware of the NOTAM and its contents.
More than just an ATCO
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Radar Or having explained everything to a pilot, rerouted him via BLUFA OTR (as was) then watching him be turned direct LAM, presumably through the CLN airspace.
535 I think what Flowman meant was that it is becoming commonplace for sectors to be closed at night, not a slur on TC. Unfortunately it is only the S. of the UK that seems to do it
535 I think what Flowman meant was that it is becoming commonplace for sectors to be closed at night, not a slur on TC. Unfortunately it is only the S. of the UK that seems to do it
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I don't think sector closures are a slur on any Operational Atc people.
They are the Sad evidence of an organisation that has routinely failed to plan ahead.
They are also symptomatic of an Organisation that does not understand the reality that ATC is not "business", it is a PUBLIC SERVICE and part of the National / International Transport Infrastructure.
Trying to run it like a certain UK Privatised Rail Infrastucture Company will eventually lead to the same results. See the (ongoing) RailTrack fiasco.
Rgds BEX
They are the Sad evidence of an organisation that has routinely failed to plan ahead.
They are also symptomatic of an Organisation that does not understand the reality that ATC is not "business", it is a PUBLIC SERVICE and part of the National / International Transport Infrastructure.
Trying to run it like a certain UK Privatised Rail Infrastucture Company will eventually lead to the same results. See the (ongoing) RailTrack fiasco.
Rgds BEX
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BEXIL
Right on the money, mate. Unfortunately it's not only in the UK that the management consultant types are taking over the asylum. Comin' to a store near you ....... soon, as they say!
Right on the money, mate. Unfortunately it's not only in the UK that the management consultant types are taking over the asylum. Comin' to a store near you ....... soon, as they say!
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RADAR,
I never took it as a slur on TC, was just setting the record straight.
Airspace closures are more likely at Swanwick, because the manpower is used in a slightly different way (the sectors are run differently) and as said by Bex et al above, the management/bean counters do not give the people on the shop floor the correct amount of manpower to comfortably provide a service.
The management seem content on running at a bare minimum - something has to give.
Personally, as an aside, I am in favour of giving people who do additional sectors extra money - there is no company law requirement to do more than one core sector, yet is is expected by management.
I am sure it is the same at LACC, but TC would not function with the number of staff it rosters daily if people did not hold extra validations.
The people that do so do not get paid any extra, but have to do extra bookwork and undergo exra LCE checks for no gain!!
Thread drift alert(!) but maybe people who do extra sectors should think about rescinding their validation if the management keep hacking away at manpower/pensions etc.
It is easy enough to justify that you do not think you are getting the currency required to give a safe service in an increasingly busy environment.
Just a thought
I never took it as a slur on TC, was just setting the record straight.
Airspace closures are more likely at Swanwick, because the manpower is used in a slightly different way (the sectors are run differently) and as said by Bex et al above, the management/bean counters do not give the people on the shop floor the correct amount of manpower to comfortably provide a service.
The management seem content on running at a bare minimum - something has to give.
Personally, as an aside, I am in favour of giving people who do additional sectors extra money - there is no company law requirement to do more than one core sector, yet is is expected by management.
I am sure it is the same at LACC, but TC would not function with the number of staff it rosters daily if people did not hold extra validations.
The people that do so do not get paid any extra, but have to do extra bookwork and undergo exra LCE checks for no gain!!
Thread drift alert(!) but maybe people who do extra sectors should think about rescinding their validation if the management keep hacking away at manpower/pensions etc.
It is easy enough to justify that you do not think you are getting the currency required to give a safe service in an increasingly busy environment.
Just a thought
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"Jack of all trades master of none" springs to mind if people do too many sectors. You have to be careful of spreading yourself too thin which also brings recency into the equation.
I think i'm right in that in the last pay deal this wasn't involved as the union didn't want to be seen to be encouraging people to do too much.
With the predicted traffic levels of this summer I'm glad of my two sectors and am gonna keep it that way as long as I can.
Back to the original topic, I was one of the DTY/CLN bods on the night in question and was pretty frustrated at not being able to take traffic on as the LAS said I was not allowed as the airspace was CLOSED. I wasn't even allowed to delegate it to TC East or Mastricht
I think i'm right in that in the last pay deal this wasn't involved as the union didn't want to be seen to be encouraging people to do too much.
With the predicted traffic levels of this summer I'm glad of my two sectors and am gonna keep it that way as long as I can.
Back to the original topic, I was one of the DTY/CLN bods on the night in question and was pretty frustrated at not being able to take traffic on as the LAS said I was not allowed as the airspace was CLOSED. I wasn't even allowed to delegate it to TC East or Mastricht
Time merchant
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535, I confirm what Lon More said, I meant that sector closures at night are becoming commonplace.
Apologies to all at TC for the unintended slur.
Crawls back under rock.
Apologies to all at TC for the unintended slur.
Crawls back under rock.
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Interesting... I don't remember if I ever asked Bex or not when I was at NERC or another mate at TC... But here we operate (are validated) in between 5 and 7 sectors normally in the enroute environment. In Approach (TC) at the very slow places there will be two maybe three sectors and at the busy places they will be split up and a controller will normally be certified on between five and eight sectors.... Intersting difference...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
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Scott, our core sectors can be split, ie. Bex and my airspace is 2 validations (our minimum requirement) but could be split into 7 different radar positions (if they ever wrote the procedures!!), normally 5 during the summer. Some of our controllers hold a third validation, which can be from 2 to an extra 4 radar positions, again dependant on which bit is done.
ukatco_535, its already happenning at Swanwick is quite a big way.........
Thread drift alert(!) but maybe people who do extra sectors should think about rescinding their validation if the management keep hacking away at manpower/pensions etc.
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5miles
The way the traffic is going, it is inevitable if we want to reach the destination (can't remember which number) which states (paraphrased) "No NATS attributable SSE1 or SSE2s will be tolerated"
Not that I am into this management speak bo11ocks - do they think we go into work thinking "I fancy having an airmiss today?"
Scott -
as 5milesbaby states, (it is the same at TC and no doubt Manchester and Scottish) - being valid on one 'sector' actually means that you can be holding validations for a few positions (8 on TC South if being pedantic, 7 of which have had to have been used a fair bit recently).
At TC there are Core sectors and 'other' non core sectors, tho due to traffic more and more are becoming core. If you hold a validation on 1 core sector then you have fulfilled the minimum requirement (different from LACC because the way things are set up, see below).
That all depends as well on what you call a core sector - some call South or North a core sector, but in LACC speak, southwest is a core sector, as is southeast - it's semantics really!
Then the management want you to do another sector with multiple positions to be valid on!!
The way the traffic is going, it is inevitable if we want to reach the destination (can't remember which number) which states (paraphrased) "No NATS attributable SSE1 or SSE2s will be tolerated"
Not that I am into this management speak bo11ocks - do they think we go into work thinking "I fancy having an airmiss today?"
Scott -
as 5milesbaby states, (it is the same at TC and no doubt Manchester and Scottish) - being valid on one 'sector' actually means that you can be holding validations for a few positions (8 on TC South if being pedantic, 7 of which have had to have been used a fair bit recently).
At TC there are Core sectors and 'other' non core sectors, tho due to traffic more and more are becoming core. If you hold a validation on 1 core sector then you have fulfilled the minimum requirement (different from LACC because the way things are set up, see below).
That all depends as well on what you call a core sector - some call South or North a core sector, but in LACC speak, southwest is a core sector, as is southeast - it's semantics really!
Then the management want you to do another sector with multiple positions to be valid on!!
