NATS ATCO Pay Deal Accepted
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Just some more perspective....(we could go on round in circles on this one....)
Pilot: no salary, pays for own licences (or part sponsored, paying back the company with a low salary for x years and bonded)
Doctor: no salary etc etc.
I think some examples are misleading: Surely the starting point of the Asda Gradute Scheme member would be the degree course, so no salary there.
And in at least half of your examples, TIO (Halfords manager, call centre operator), they are doing a job, ie. earning money for their employer. Also, what salary would those five employees be on in five years? I don't think it will be anywhere near 50k.
in three years time, when we get presented with the next pay deal, I would be surprised to see trainee ATCOs getting any salary as we know it. Loans/grants/bondage
is the way it's going.
Pilot: no salary, pays for own licences (or part sponsored, paying back the company with a low salary for x years and bonded)
Doctor: no salary etc etc.
I think some examples are misleading: Surely the starting point of the Asda Gradute Scheme member would be the degree course, so no salary there.
And in at least half of your examples, TIO (Halfords manager, call centre operator), they are doing a job, ie. earning money for their employer. Also, what salary would those five employees be on in five years? I don't think it will be anywhere near 50k.
in three years time, when we get presented with the next pay deal, I would be surprised to see trainee ATCOs getting any salary as we know it. Loans/grants/bondage
is the way it's going.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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IF Gonzo then you expect there to be no salary then NATS shouldn't be employing them, then at least they can apply for benefits, improvement loans. The problem is that once employed by a company then many of the benefits and loans normal students can get go out of the window.
NATS cannot have it's cake and eat it, either they train in house or they don't. On the one they must treat their employees favourably on the other well that is down to the student if they are prepared to commit thousands of pounds and not then have the definite guarantee of a job.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.
This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.
NATS cannot have it's cake and eat it, either they train in house or they don't. On the one they must treat their employees favourably on the other well that is down to the student if they are prepared to commit thousands of pounds and not then have the definite guarantee of a job.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.
This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Flower,
I could not agree more. Money is the prime factor nowadays not safety, but then that scenario was one of the major objections to privitisation I believe.
I could not agree more. Money is the prime factor nowadays not safety, but then that scenario was one of the major objections to privitisation I believe.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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So far I have seen what appears to be only one comment from a current ATCO stating they could not have coped on the new trainee rate. Everyone else is harping on about look at pilots, you’re not dedicated if money concerns you etc. I wonder how many ATCO's on here, now happily earning their salary could have coped? Many on here would have been receiving nearly twice this rate, over 5 years ago.
I think a little more compassion from some is needed.
Love of the job does not stop the building society knocking on the door asking for the keys when the mortgage payment isn't made; nor does it magically put food on the table for your dependants, and most of all, it doesn't stop you worrying about huge debts; that's one thing to stop the mind being focused on any job.
Maybe NATS should look at setting up a university of its own, only looking at school leavers etc, then students could apply for grants, be means tested etc, and have student loans with lower interest rates over a longer period, after all, you have to earn over 15K (I think) before you need to pay the money back, and any lender is going to fall over themselves to give this money out, as 15K is surpassed after validation. Those that fail, well, your next job will probably pay over that, so you'll have to pay it back. Also conveniently stops tax on earnings should you so desire to get a "Saturday" job, and knocks out council tax etc. For "mature" students, tax credits kick in for those with families etc.
I for one cannot agree with the situation of pilots, I think many nowadays are pulled in by clever advertising of the training schools when in fact there is little or no chance of employment for many, and just a lifetime of debt, but that's a different thread.
I think a little more compassion from some is needed.
Love of the job does not stop the building society knocking on the door asking for the keys when the mortgage payment isn't made; nor does it magically put food on the table for your dependants, and most of all, it doesn't stop you worrying about huge debts; that's one thing to stop the mind being focused on any job.
Maybe NATS should look at setting up a university of its own, only looking at school leavers etc, then students could apply for grants, be means tested etc, and have student loans with lower interest rates over a longer period, after all, you have to earn over 15K (I think) before you need to pay the money back, and any lender is going to fall over themselves to give this money out, as 15K is surpassed after validation. Those that fail, well, your next job will probably pay over that, so you'll have to pay it back. Also conveniently stops tax on earnings should you so desire to get a "Saturday" job, and knocks out council tax etc. For "mature" students, tax credits kick in for those with families etc.
I for one cannot agree with the situation of pilots, I think many nowadays are pulled in by clever advertising of the training schools when in fact there is little or no chance of employment for many, and just a lifetime of debt, but that's a different thread.
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up the tower,
Just a small point, when I was at the college, nearly 8 years ago now, yes I did earn the £15k ish start pay plus WAP and trips home, but I KNOW that even at that time we didn't have to pay council tax as we were classified as students. Surely this would allow our current crop of 'students' to take on the loans and schemes aimed at uni type students, whilst allowing them the flexibility of earning, an albeit small wage, and gaining the short course guide to air traffic which catapults them into better wages in the future.
Also, would our students with families not be able to claim top whack benefits with regard to their children?? (Having no family I don't know) I know it's not ideal, but as has been said before, it's a means to an end, and doesn't last very long. The remuneration after a couple of years will soon pay off any loan payments outstanding.
Just a small point, when I was at the college, nearly 8 years ago now, yes I did earn the £15k ish start pay plus WAP and trips home, but I KNOW that even at that time we didn't have to pay council tax as we were classified as students. Surely this would allow our current crop of 'students' to take on the loans and schemes aimed at uni type students, whilst allowing them the flexibility of earning, an albeit small wage, and gaining the short course guide to air traffic which catapults them into better wages in the future.
Also, would our students with families not be able to claim top whack benefits with regard to their children?? (Having no family I don't know) I know it's not ideal, but as has been said before, it's a means to an end, and doesn't last very long. The remuneration after a couple of years will soon pay off any loan payments outstanding.
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Originally Posted by callyoushortly
up the tower,
Just a small point, when I was at the college, nearly 8 years ago now, yes I did earn the £15k ish start pay plus WAP and trips home, but I KNOW that even at that time we didn't have to pay council tax as we were classified as students. Surely this would allow our current crop of 'students' to take on the loans and schemes aimed at uni type students, whilst allowing them the flexibility of earning, an albeit small wage, and gaining the short course guide to air traffic which catapults them into better wages in the future.
Also, would our students with families not be able to claim top whack benefits with regard to their children?? (Having no family I don't know) I know it's not ideal, but as has been said before, it's a means to an end, and doesn't last very long. The remuneration after a couple of years will soon pay off any loan payments outstanding.
Just a small point, when I was at the college, nearly 8 years ago now, yes I did earn the £15k ish start pay plus WAP and trips home, but I KNOW that even at that time we didn't have to pay council tax as we were classified as students. Surely this would allow our current crop of 'students' to take on the loans and schemes aimed at uni type students, whilst allowing them the flexibility of earning, an albeit small wage, and gaining the short course guide to air traffic which catapults them into better wages in the future.
Also, would our students with families not be able to claim top whack benefits with regard to their children?? (Having no family I don't know) I know it's not ideal, but as has been said before, it's a means to an end, and doesn't last very long. The remuneration after a couple of years will soon pay off any loan payments outstanding.
Secondly - Benefits are means tested. For every pound you earn over a certain limit then you lose a pound in benefit. Probably be able to claim about a tenner a week. No Housing rebate or council tax rebate as the wages would be deemed too high. Would be able to claim higher rate Tax Credits of about £30 per week - depending on the number of children
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Just take a look at the cars in the college car-park and tell me that NATS students are under-paid...
When I were a lad at Uni, I went everywhere on a bus. I wasn't contributing anything to the world and thus didn't feel that anyone owed me a salary. Why are trainee ATCOs seen as such a special case that they need to be protected from financial risk whereas just about any other professional trainee in the country puts their life on hold to achieve their goal?
Sure it's a bummer for those who are about to start compared to those that have gone before, but compared to what you get when you validate, it's a small price to pay.
If ERG say we gotta save money, then we gotta save money. Pay trainees less, or valid controllers in the centres?
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?
DwB
When I were a lad at Uni, I went everywhere on a bus. I wasn't contributing anything to the world and thus didn't feel that anyone owed me a salary. Why are trainee ATCOs seen as such a special case that they need to be protected from financial risk whereas just about any other professional trainee in the country puts their life on hold to achieve their goal?
Sure it's a bummer for those who are about to start compared to those that have gone before, but compared to what you get when you validate, it's a small price to pay.
If ERG say we gotta save money, then we gotta save money. Pay trainees less, or valid controllers in the centres?
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?
DwB
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[QUOTE=D
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?
DwB[/QUOTE]
If they get no applicants then they will have saved the 10000 a year on each persons wages so there will be no need to make any other savings by sacking assistants
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?
DwB
[/QUOTE]If they get no applicants then they will have saved the 10000 a year on each persons wages so there will be no need to make any other savings by sacking assistants
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still worrying about the wifes reaction to the money but least im through too stage 2! so i'll worry about that later! looking at it , it is only 9 mths if area so i guess its gonna be bread and water for a while!! but if i get offered, i will do it. just gotta ask the friendly (sic) tax man for some benefits!
and i totally agree with the fact its now a company and profits is the motivator for most of the higher echelons!
here be dragons
and i totally agree with the fact its now a company and profits is the motivator for most of the higher echelons!
here be dragons
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Originally Posted by flower
It would appear that university applications are now down since the introduction of top up fees, I suspect the same will now happen to us.
The thing is though Flower uni students have to pay out 3k per year to be trained, we pay out 10k a year to train someone. I feel there's a massive difference.
TATC
I take your points and stand corrected.
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The deal is done. A fair and democratic voting process has produced a clear result. No matter which corner your points of view came from, this is the time to show support and backing for union representatives. I didn't like the deal but now that it has been adopted I recognise its validity and will be prepared to work within it......that's what solidarity is all about: however it is somewhat disappointing that almost a third of those eligible to vote did not do so. It is that level of general apathy that ensures my complete support for the union even when the deal is not 100% to my liking; the reps had a hard time......to them I say "thanks" for all your work.
On the subject of trainee pay......the sacrifice is relatively short term. For those with families/dependents there is a whole raft of support mechanisms in place through the benefit system and they apply just as much to NATS staff as anyone else. One should not expect to undertake career-change and not take a salary hit......consider it to be an investment in the future.......short-term pain/long-term gain; but it will certainly test your motivation.
On the subject of trainee pay......the sacrifice is relatively short term. For those with families/dependents there is a whole raft of support mechanisms in place through the benefit system and they apply just as much to NATS staff as anyone else. One should not expect to undertake career-change and not take a salary hit......consider it to be an investment in the future.......short-term pain/long-term gain; but it will certainly test your motivation.
Gonzo:
I'm afraid you're wrong; at least three people from my unit couldn't wait to get to the college having spent a minimum of time as operational ATCO's, and that was long before banding was introduced. Two others went to what are now Band 5 units, knowing they wouldn't validate, and were consequently posted to the college, which is what they'd wanted in the first place.
I'm afraid you're wrong; at least three people from my unit couldn't wait to get to the college having spent a minimum of time as operational ATCO's, and that was long before banding was introduced. Two others went to what are now Band 5 units, knowing they wouldn't validate, and were consequently posted to the college, which is what they'd wanted in the first place.
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lets be honest 10k for trainee pay is small compared to what was previously on offer and of course it is small compared to a 'validated salary' but you can certainly live on 10k for 9-12 months and probably live reasonably comfy. It will just take a wee bit of ingenuity and strict budgeting, kiss bye bye to the luxuries and dont get snared by 'status syndrome'. There is plenty of 'families'
not just individuals that survive on 10k a year with no prospects of higher future earnings .
Me thinks that this will weed out the people for whom money is the sole reason of wanting entry, and those that think ATC is cushy wee number those who have genuine reasons for wanting to be part of ATC will find a way to cope, nothing comes without sacrifice.
if there are some ouy there with genuine concern for the trainees, please start a thread giving advice on how to live on a budget, tip and tricks to save dosh etc there must be a wealth of experience out there and this will be more beneficial than pity.
not just individuals that survive on 10k a year with no prospects of higher future earnings . Me thinks that this will weed out the people for whom money is the sole reason of wanting entry, and those that think ATC is cushy wee number those who have genuine reasons for wanting to be part of ATC will find a way to cope, nothing comes without sacrifice.
if there are some ouy there with genuine concern for the trainees, please start a thread giving advice on how to live on a budget, tip and tricks to save dosh etc there must be a wealth of experience out there and this will be more beneficial than pity.
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Originally Posted by chevvron
Gonzo:
I'm afraid you're wrong; at least three people from my unit couldn't wait to get to the college having spent a minimum of time as operational ATCO's, and that was long before banding was introduced. Two others went to what are now Band 5 units, knowing they wouldn't validate, and were consequently posted to the college, which is what they'd wanted in the first place.
I'm afraid you're wrong; at least three people from my unit couldn't wait to get to the college having spent a minimum of time as operational ATCO's, and that was long before banding was introduced. Two others went to what are now Band 5 units, knowing they wouldn't validate, and were consequently posted to the college, which is what they'd wanted in the first place.
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OK OK what's wrong with people being attracted by the money?
I know of at least a dozen on my watch who have validated since I arrived on watch that joined because of the lure of big money, and couldn't care less how they earn it, let alone know the difference between a 772 and a 773. Let's face it, ATC/aviation doesn't have to be a great lifelong dream to be able to do the job.
I know of at least a dozen on my watch who have validated since I arrived on watch that joined because of the lure of big money, and couldn't care less how they earn it, let alone know the difference between a 772 and a 773. Let's face it, ATC/aviation doesn't have to be a great lifelong dream to be able to do the job.
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Originally Posted by flower
NATS cannot have it's cake and eat it, either they train in house or they don't. On the one they must treat their employees favourably on the other well that is down to the student if they are prepared to commit thousands of pounds and not then have the definite guarantee of a job.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.
This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.
This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.
And you can't criticise NATS for being more interested in money than safety, becuase, a) that just is not true, and b) we are all on this forum discussing money, putting forward our opinions, and just becuase I and others don't agree with you does not mean we care any less about safety.
And for the record, I would not want to be a pilot for all the Tea in China. It was always ATC for me.
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Everyone has different opinions on this. My personal one is that it would've been very hard, if not impossible to survive on 10k with no accomodation allowance.
Out of interest, is that about £600 take home a month?? B&B's down here cost around £400 a month. Think we're going to see a lot of people walking and cycling to the college, as i doubt students will even be able to afford a car!!
Like i said, this is only my personal opinion, but i feel sorry for future cadets. I think we've sold them out a bit. And i don't think this new pay deal will lead to more suited people applying for the job. I think it will actually have the opposite affect. I hope i'm proved wrong.
The Friendly One
Out of interest, is that about £600 take home a month?? B&B's down here cost around £400 a month. Think we're going to see a lot of people walking and cycling to the college, as i doubt students will even be able to afford a car!!
Like i said, this is only my personal opinion, but i feel sorry for future cadets. I think we've sold them out a bit. And i don't think this new pay deal will lead to more suited people applying for the job. I think it will actually have the opposite affect. I hope i'm proved wrong.
The Friendly One