Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
I'm sorry to introduce a bit of reality into this debate but - in the UK at least - the airspace-related speed limit does not apply to many of the flights that are under discussion. Rule 23 of the Rules of the Air says
Rules is rules, as they say - and it helps to read them!
23 (1) Subject to paragraph (3), an aircraft shall not fly below flight level 100 at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is more than 250 knots unless it is flying in accordance with the terms of a written permission of the Authority.
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to:
(a) flight in Class A airspace;
(b) VFR flight or IFR flight in Class B airspace;
(c) IFR flight in Class C airspace;
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to:
(a) flight in Class A airspace;
(b) VFR flight or IFR flight in Class B airspace;
(c) IFR flight in Class C airspace;
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
Giles Wembley-Hogg
Why are you so desparate for "high speed" to be defined?
Why are you so desparate for "high speed" to be defined?
Desparate???
Where do you get that from in my post??? I'm just saying there's no definition for high speed. Nothing else
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
There is no definition of "high speed", nor should there be. If a controller wants a particular speed he/she will specify it. The Controller is asking you to maintain high speed, ie keep going as you are and don't slow down or if you do have to slow down say so first. An instruction as vague as "maintain high speed" will not be safety critical - separation will not depend on it - but the ATCOs overall plan might!
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
Hay Day May Day
You are quite right. I humbly offer my apologies. I am afraid I was reading this thread with a growing sense of disbelief and I misinterpreted your contribution.
As you rightly point out, there is no definition for "high speed", and neither is one required as Arkady rather neatly explains.
Sorry again HDMD.
G W-H
You are quite right. I humbly offer my apologies. I am afraid I was reading this thread with a growing sense of disbelief and I misinterpreted your contribution.
As you rightly point out, there is no definition for "high speed", and neither is one required as Arkady rather neatly explains.
Sorry again HDMD.
G W-H
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
In my experience, "high speed," "good rate," and all of their non-standard relatives are tools which are more carrot than stick--more of a "do what you can" request that keeps me out of the flight deck. As has been pointed out above, if I want a particular speed (my favorite..."two-ten to the marker, faster if you like..."
), I'll say so. Almost without exception, when I use a phrase like "high speed" it's because something down the road will work a little better if you move along in a more brisk manner, but if you don't, no harm done. Although it might mean a turn or a speed assignment for you or someone else in a bit, but perhaps not.
Firm speed assignments are a different thing. In general I don't use firm speed assignments to make traffic flow more smoothly and everybody's life a little easier. I use firm speed assignments to keep metal exactly the right distance apart. Sometimes that's what's needed. Sometimes a speed a little greater than usual will be fine.
However, in no case should you be flying in any manner which is contrary to the regs, your SOP, etc, whether or not I tell you to (or you think I've told you to... for instance, I can tell you to "maintain maximum forward speed," but that speed better be below 250 knots below 10,000 feet). That's what I like about things like "high speed" or "good rate" (or a word that IS in tahe manual on this side of the pond, "expedite"). Like I said, it keeps me out of the flight deck. On the other hand, when I tell you to do something you can't legally do, you should be telling me "unable."
), I'll say so. Almost without exception, when I use a phrase like "high speed" it's because something down the road will work a little better if you move along in a more brisk manner, but if you don't, no harm done. Although it might mean a turn or a speed assignment for you or someone else in a bit, but perhaps not. Firm speed assignments are a different thing. In general I don't use firm speed assignments to make traffic flow more smoothly and everybody's life a little easier. I use firm speed assignments to keep metal exactly the right distance apart. Sometimes that's what's needed. Sometimes a speed a little greater than usual will be fine.
However, in no case should you be flying in any manner which is contrary to the regs, your SOP, etc, whether or not I tell you to (or you think I've told you to... for instance, I can tell you to "maintain maximum forward speed," but that speed better be below 250 knots below 10,000 feet). That's what I like about things like "high speed" or "good rate" (or a word that IS in tahe manual on this side of the pond, "expedite"). Like I said, it keeps me out of the flight deck. On the other hand, when I tell you to do something you can't legally do, you should be telling me "unable."
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
... I should have added that in the USA "high speed" should be defined. It is worth remembering that over there:
"keep high speed" means "reduce speed 250kts"
"caution wake vortex" means "you are in the same wake vortex group as the preceeding traffic. No vortex separation is required"
"maintain" means "climb/descend"
"cleared to land" means "land after the preceeding 4 or 5 aircraft have landed successfully and vacated the runway"
I can't wait to hear what the definition of "turn left heading 180 degrees is"!
An increasingly bewildered
G W-H
"keep high speed" means "reduce speed 250kts"
"caution wake vortex" means "you are in the same wake vortex group as the preceeding traffic. No vortex separation is required"
"maintain" means "climb/descend"
"cleared to land" means "land after the preceeding 4 or 5 aircraft have landed successfully and vacated the runway"
I can't wait to hear what the definition of "turn left heading 180 degrees is"!
An increasingly bewildered
G W-H
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
Pffffffft. Hardly bewildered. Simply lashing-out.
Oh, and just a pointer for the future... sarcasm will work much better in a case like this if you actually use the US phraseology in your example. You know, as though you've been here and heard it.
Also, you may want to take a moment to go back and look over my previous posts on various threads. You may be surprised to learn that I'm pretty service-oriented and harsh on my fellow controllers and that I have had this mindset for some 30-odd years in this line of work. Thankfully, it's going to take more than one jerk (or 100 jerks) to change that. Nice try though.
Unless you are incapable of expressing yourself in any manner EXCEPT passive-aggressive, I suggest you converse rather than pontificate.
That's ME lashing out.
Dave
Oh, and just a pointer for the future... sarcasm will work much better in a case like this if you actually use the US phraseology in your example. You know, as though you've been here and heard it.
Also, you may want to take a moment to go back and look over my previous posts on various threads. You may be surprised to learn that I'm pretty service-oriented and harsh on my fellow controllers and that I have had this mindset for some 30-odd years in this line of work. Thankfully, it's going to take more than one jerk (or 100 jerks) to change that. Nice try though.
Unless you are incapable of expressing yourself in any manner EXCEPT passive-aggressive, I suggest you converse rather than pontificate.
That's ME lashing out.
Dave
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Re: Hi Speed insruction during descent!!
Dave
Really not meant as sarcasm! (We Brits don't JUST do sarcasm). I was suggesting that maybe it would be sensible to define high speed in your part of the World, since it is clearly not what some of us would at first think it is. Especially below 10000'.
Don't forget I really want to understand your clearances. Despite what you may think, I actually DO have to fly them. So you must forgive me when I come across examples of your phraseology which sound like they are instructions to do one thing (to a foreigner don't forget), when they actually mean something else.
After all. The last time Potomac APP told us to fly at "speed 290kts", since we were actually at 5000' did they not really mean "fly at 290kts after passing 10000'"?
I stand by to be corrected.
G W-H
Really not meant as sarcasm! (We Brits don't JUST do sarcasm). I was suggesting that maybe it would be sensible to define high speed in your part of the World, since it is clearly not what some of us would at first think it is. Especially below 10000'.
Don't forget I really want to understand your clearances. Despite what you may think, I actually DO have to fly them. So you must forgive me when I come across examples of your phraseology which sound like they are instructions to do one thing (to a foreigner don't forget), when they actually mean something else.
After all. The last time Potomac APP told us to fly at "speed 290kts", since we were actually at 5000' did they not really mean "fly at 290kts after passing 10000'"?
I stand by to be corrected.
G W-H
