Question for LHR ATC
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question for LHR ATC
In the recent BALPA magazine there is a report on Heathrow ATC.
In it, it states that ATC will exercise caution when giving A320 family a/c conditonal line up clearances.
Just wandering why?
Trying to think from your point of view, is it cos there are a large amount of A320 family operating out of LHR. So one can find many of them at the holding point at the same time, possibly with the same airline have different types at the holding point ie: A320's and 21's
In it, it states that ATC will exercise caution when giving A320 family a/c conditonal line up clearances.
Just wandering why?
Trying to think from your point of view, is it cos there are a large amount of A320 family operating out of LHR. So one can find many of them at the holding point at the same time, possibly with the same airline have different types at the holding point ie: A320's and 21's
Yes, I was wondering about that too and assumed it was for the reason you mention. As the two biggest slot owners at LHR operate a variety of minibus types (as do frequent visitors like LH, AF, IB, TP and AZ), I suppose it's sensible to be careful. I found the article quite useful and will always make sure to readback "altitude" now when cleared to one. I wonder why no mention was made of the common disregard of the term "monitor" as in "monitor 118.7"...
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly. We've had a number of a/c line up in the wrong order due to misinterpreting a possibly ambiguous conditional line up clearance. For example, the order is: BA 319, BA 320, BA320. The clearance is after the second BA 320, but the a/c lines up after the first 320.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<The clearance is after the second BA 320,>>
My book says conditional clearances may only relate to one aircraft but when aircraft are at a holding point it may be related to the aircraft ahead...... Presumably this is yet another situation which has changed since I packed in and one that strikes me a trifle dodgy!
My book says conditional clearances may only relate to one aircraft but when aircraft are at a holding point it may be related to the aircraft ahead...... Presumably this is yet another situation which has changed since I packed in and one that strikes me a trifle dodgy!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now for me all planes are little green blips (with loads of pointless Mode S characters trailing...... but that is another story) - but even I could see the difference between an A319 and A320.
If those that fly them have no idea.......
Gonzo - perhaps it should be "After the generic A320 family aircraft line up and wait" !?!??!
B-L
If those that fly them have no idea.......
Gonzo - perhaps it should be "After the generic A320 family aircraft line up and wait" !?!??!
B-L
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And there was me thinking that conditional clearances involving the runway were only allowed to include the next A/C to use that runway!
Didn't the CAA put out a poster campaign about this last year? Something like...
"After the 3rd A/C like all the others, line up"
Didn't the CAA put out a poster campaign about this last year? Something like...
"After the 3rd A/C like all the others, line up"
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wales
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My book says conditional clearances may only relate to one aircraft
If the clearance is worded as " After the 3rd BA 320, line up and wait" you could argue that the clearance relates to only one a/c. The fact that the 3rd Ba 320 is on a conditional subject to the 2nd, and the 2nd subject the first, an argument could be made to say that each conditional relates to 1 a/c ( I'm not sure i explained that very well but hope you can get my drift!!)
Personally, i tend to try and make a judgement call based on what I think the crew can understand I am trying to tell them. If i think the pilot can't speak good english, or, I am not explaining myself well ( 9 times out of 10 I'm sure its the latter) then why risk it. However, Im not trying to shift 50+ departes an hour, sometimes its 5 if I'm lucky!
TIO
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah but when it's dark and your following them you can't see the overwing exits to count them (which is how I tell the difference).
BA 319, BA 320, BA320. The clearance is after the second BA 320, but the a/c lines up after the first 320
The LHR article was interesting, and the point about similar types seems well made - do not rely on minor type differences - as someone sometime will get it wrong...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the world
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where does it say you can't give conditional line up clearances at night?
Line Up Clearance
Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways provided that:
a) it is during daylight hours;
b) all aircraft are continuously visible to the aerodrome controller;
c) all aircraft are on the same RTF frequency;
d) pilots are advised of the number of aircraft ahead in the departure sequence, and the position/runway from which these aircraft will depart;
e) the physical characteristics of the runway do not render preceding aircraft in the departure sequence invisible to succeeding aircraft on the same runway.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways"
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the world
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways"
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.
Doesn't apply if they are using the same point as at LHR.
I don't care what you/they do at EGLL, point 7 asked
Where does it say you can't give conditional line up clearances at night?
DR
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think maybe you should re-read what it says in the MATS Part 1.
It refers to
Aircraft departing from DIFFERENT points on the SAME runway. or different runways i.e. intersection departures with an aircraft on the threshold are not permitted at night because of this rule.
Because aircraft at the same holding point are departing from the SAME POINT on the runway then the night restriction doesn't apply.
Does it make any more sense to you?
It refers to
Aircraft departing from DIFFERENT points on the SAME runway. or different runways i.e. intersection departures with an aircraft on the threshold are not permitted at night because of this rule.
Because aircraft at the same holding point are departing from the SAME POINT on the runway then the night restriction doesn't apply.
Does it make any more sense to you?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HD,
I can't believe that you never had more than one a/c with a conditional line up clearance. Some were starting to get carried away with things so we limit the number to six.
I can't believe that you never had more than one a/c with a conditional line up clearance. Some were starting to get carried away with things so we limit the number to six.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Line up instructions may be issued to more than one aircraft at different points on the same or crossing runways provided that:
i.e "After the landing" or "After the departing" is acceptable at night, "Line up and wait, number two for departure to an aircraft departing from XXX" is not acceptable at night.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Question for LHR ATC
DR
I asked a question and you gave me the answer... but to a different one. As stated above, those are the rules for MULTIPLE line ups not conditional line ups. Should you wish me to go through the differences for you just drop me a PM.
P7
I asked a question and you gave me the answer... but to a different one. As stated above, those are the rules for MULTIPLE line ups not conditional line ups. Should you wish me to go through the differences for you just drop me a PM.
P7
