EDI Radar
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Brain Fade
I refer you to my previous post.......
Because I've better things to be doing with my time than wasting it on you guys saying:
"advise if you'd like to go visual"
"advise if you want to go visual"
"report at any time if you've got the field in sight"
Just because you get that service at PF doesn't mean you'll get it at PH, I bet they don't offer all the time in Paris!!
Just accept it, it's the way it is
I refer you to my previous post.......
Because I've better things to be doing with my time than wasting it on you guys saying:
"advise if you'd like to go visual"
"advise if you want to go visual"
"report at any time if you've got the field in sight"
Just because you get that service at PF doesn't mean you'll get it at PH, I bet they don't offer all the time in Paris!!
Just accept it, it's the way it is
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PH-UKU and Brain Fade,
whilst I understand the phrase "Report at any time if you wish to continue visually" Is not as blatant as "offering" a visual approach. I think you would be hard put to use it as a defence if anybody were to question whether you were working within the spirit of the rules.
I may have seemed critical of the airport authority in my previous post. This was not my intention. An airport needs to show a certain amount of sensitivity to the people who live on its flight paths and close to its boundarys.
With decisions to be made at the highest levels on expansion plans at both airports ( building on the RHS and a possible second runway at one or t'other or both.) The airport authorities are going to need all the friends they can get!
Baggy
Edited to ask a question of the Scottish controllers.
After reading this thread I was a little confused about the comments regarding pf banging the aircraft down the approach in comparison to ph. It confused me because I know we regularly achieve 38-40 movements per hour during the peak periods. As I mused, I was looking at our long range radar screen which runs off lowther. Due to the pentland hills ph traffic disappears off this when at roughly 1200 ft or 4 miles from touchdown whereas the pf traffic was still visible down to 300 feet. Could this give the perception that ph only ever seems to have an a/c at 8/9/10 miles with nothng in front whereas you can see the whole of the sequence going into pf?
Just a thought
whilst I understand the phrase "Report at any time if you wish to continue visually" Is not as blatant as "offering" a visual approach. I think you would be hard put to use it as a defence if anybody were to question whether you were working within the spirit of the rules.
I may have seemed critical of the airport authority in my previous post. This was not my intention. An airport needs to show a certain amount of sensitivity to the people who live on its flight paths and close to its boundarys.
With decisions to be made at the highest levels on expansion plans at both airports ( building on the RHS and a possible second runway at one or t'other or both.) The airport authorities are going to need all the friends they can get!
Baggy
Edited to ask a question of the Scottish controllers.
After reading this thread I was a little confused about the comments regarding pf banging the aircraft down the approach in comparison to ph. It confused me because I know we regularly achieve 38-40 movements per hour during the peak periods. As I mused, I was looking at our long range radar screen which runs off lowther. Due to the pentland hills ph traffic disappears off this when at roughly 1200 ft or 4 miles from touchdown whereas the pf traffic was still visible down to 300 feet. Could this give the perception that ph only ever seems to have an a/c at 8/9/10 miles with nothng in front whereas you can see the whole of the sequence going into pf?
Just a thought
Last edited by Bagheera; 14th Dec 2005 at 21:04.
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All depends on where the inbounds are.
When PF are on 23, any DCS or TLA (non jet departures) will be worked against inbounds via Turnberry, any departures to the west will be worked against anything inbound from the west.
When on 05 any DCS, TRN (Non Jet), Tla (Non Jet) departures will be worked against anything inbound via LANAK or STIRA
All other departures will be worked against traffic inbound from the North and West.
In the mornings at about 9am, we end up working just about everything outbound if on 05 or about 25% of deps if on 23.
When PF are on 23, any DCS or TLA (non jet departures) will be worked against inbounds via Turnberry, any departures to the west will be worked against anything inbound from the west.
When on 05 any DCS, TRN (Non Jet), Tla (Non Jet) departures will be worked against anything inbound via LANAK or STIRA
All other departures will be worked against traffic inbound from the North and West.
In the mornings at about 9am, we end up working just about everything outbound if on 05 or about 25% of deps if on 23.
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POSSIBLE PROCEDURE FOR PRESENTATION OF TRAFFIC INTO EDINBURGH.
Inbound aircraft routed via the STAR to TARTAN expecting to hold. Aircraft are released to Edinburgh descending to a specified level, and transferred to Edinburgh Radar when in the descent to the agreed level and either steady on track TARTAN or in the hold.
The first inbound is released as Min Stack, and subsequent arrivals are released at levels above this in order. The release level does not have to be vacant when the phone call is made to Edinburgh releasing the aircraft (this enbales multiple aircraft to be released in one phone call).
The TMA controller descends the aircraft when levels become free( it was mentioned earlier that ScACC can now use SSR to descend in the stack so no need for Edinburgh to phone with vacate reports).
If the stack becomes full ( ie aircraft holding up to FL120 for example - subsequent aircraft released at FL120a, FL120b etc.., which indicates that they will be descended FL120 when it is free and transferred to Edinburgh then.
Obviously it might be possible for Edinburgh to sequence aircraft without them holding, in this case then they phone TLA to coordinate a heading and level for those aircraft which do not need to hold.
This obviously means that the standard arrival procedure is to take up the hold. Also the onus is on Edinburgh to tell scottich when the hold is not needed.(perhaps a more fail safe system as if there are any comms problems they will be routing to the hold and onto a published procedure, rather than on a heading)
The problem mentioned earlier of all aircraft going to the hold increasing delays is not there because the aircraft can be transferred before the holding fix if they are descending to their release level. This means that edinburgh can vector aircraft to avoid the hold if possible. There is also nothing stopping the TLA controller, or the EDI radar controller coordinating a heading or alternative release level for an aircraft not descending to its release level
For those of you doubting whether telephone releases for all inbounds are a good idea because of the increase in workload, well all inbounds to LL, KK, SS and LC are subject to a telephone release between TMA and APC controllers, and it works wellin the London TMA
Inbound aircraft routed via the STAR to TARTAN expecting to hold. Aircraft are released to Edinburgh descending to a specified level, and transferred to Edinburgh Radar when in the descent to the agreed level and either steady on track TARTAN or in the hold.
The first inbound is released as Min Stack, and subsequent arrivals are released at levels above this in order. The release level does not have to be vacant when the phone call is made to Edinburgh releasing the aircraft (this enbales multiple aircraft to be released in one phone call).
The TMA controller descends the aircraft when levels become free( it was mentioned earlier that ScACC can now use SSR to descend in the stack so no need for Edinburgh to phone with vacate reports).
If the stack becomes full ( ie aircraft holding up to FL120 for example - subsequent aircraft released at FL120a, FL120b etc.., which indicates that they will be descended FL120 when it is free and transferred to Edinburgh then.
Obviously it might be possible for Edinburgh to sequence aircraft without them holding, in this case then they phone TLA to coordinate a heading and level for those aircraft which do not need to hold.
This obviously means that the standard arrival procedure is to take up the hold. Also the onus is on Edinburgh to tell scottich when the hold is not needed.(perhaps a more fail safe system as if there are any comms problems they will be routing to the hold and onto a published procedure, rather than on a heading)
The problem mentioned earlier of all aircraft going to the hold increasing delays is not there because the aircraft can be transferred before the holding fix if they are descending to their release level. This means that edinburgh can vector aircraft to avoid the hold if possible. There is also nothing stopping the TLA controller, or the EDI radar controller coordinating a heading or alternative release level for an aircraft not descending to its release level
For those of you doubting whether telephone releases for all inbounds are a good idea because of the increase in workload, well all inbounds to LL, KK, SS and LC are subject to a telephone release between TMA and APC controllers, and it works wellin the London TMA
Last edited by TATC; 20th Dec 2005 at 19:05.
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Speaking as a user of the service I would much rather fly the published STAR at the pupblished speeds to the hold fix and then be picked off from there for an approach. We seem to get everything but. There seems to be an extreme reluctance by Scottish to use the holds. Speed seems to be the prefered option and varies from "fast as you can" until well after Peebles to "250 or less" upto 30 BEFORE NEW. If 10W think that we will always be expecting to go to the hold then he is mistaken. It is only entered in the FMS if (rarely) we think we are going there.
However the service we get from Scottish nbound to GLA generally seems to be better.
However the service we get from Scottish nbound to GLA generally seems to be better.
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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If 10W think that we will always be expecting to go to the hold then he is mistaken. It is only entered in the FMS if (rarely) we think we are going there.
Will be interested to see if the AIP answer matches your expectations
250Kts or less 30 before NEW is pretty unbelievable to be honest mainly because the guys who do the speed control and sequnces don't work (or look) that far out and many who work that airspace don't do TMA and would not be looking at TMA 'sequences' which are well below their base level of FL255 anyway. After NEW is a distinct possibility since the TMA will now spot how you are going to fit in with the arrivals from the South and may ask the TAY sector to allocate you a speed.
From the South via MARGO being speeded early would be a fair cop since they start to feed in to the TMA directly and many are also valid TMA controllers so will try to start spacings early since they can see the traffic below them.
I guess you'd hate to work in the USA where speed control hundreds of miles out can be experienced regularly, but they do, to their credit, move a heck of a lot of aircraft with little airborne holding (ground delays in the conga line for departure are another thing of course !!)
To be honest, if you'd rather hold (and back to holding speed by the entry fix to keep you in the holding area, designed for 210Kts I think) when given speed control, then why not make the request ? It might save the controller a bit of work, especially if he knows you're happy to take an extra 10 minutes or so in the air without whinging about it.
The only risk is that one or two others might slip in ahead of you depending on the dynamics of your hold entry and entry level. But that's one of lifes unknowns till it happens.
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On the assumption you are inbound on a STAR routeing (as you will be unless you have negotiated a clearance to join direct outside the Airways CAS structure), what will be the terminal fix you have in front of you on your chart and presumably in the FMS as its your filed route, ?
250Kts or less 30 before NEW is pretty unbelievable
back to holding speed by the entry fix to keep you in the holding area, designed for 210Kts I think
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Someone pointed me to this article on EDI ATC today. More emphasis on the tower than radar though
Sunday Herald
Sunday Herald
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Hello to Air Traffickers who showed me round the new tower the other day. Thanks for an interesting hour or so. I enjoyed my visit and our wee chat even though I have plainly been unmasked!
Hopefully will be able to offer jump seat trips once Callyoushortly has had hers.
BF
Hopefully will be able to offer jump seat trips once Callyoushortly has had hers.
BF
