European ATC - Language problems..
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European ATC - Language problems..
Now i'm quite new to commercial flying, but i'm pretty sure that some of the continuous language issues i experience are causing quite a few safety issues.
Yesterday i experienced a situation which can only be described as a complete breakdown in communication. Half through French airspace we were speaking to a Radar controller and requested weather for our destination and alternate. For some bizaare reason (which can only be explained by the controllers poor understanding of basic ICAO RT) he misundestood that we wanted to change our destination! When we explained a second time that we were only requesting weather, we thought we had solved this 'small' understanding.
Little did we know that the problem would escalate! We there passed passed to Swiss Radar - and nothing mentioned about a change of routing or destination....
Later we were passed to Milan and began our approach into our destination (or what we thought was our destination!). We then got quite an unusual routing- however we questioned this routing and assured that it was correct! - we assumed that we were being radar vectored for a shorter routing (Our commercial alternate is around 35miles east of our destination). when we passed 20 miles to the east of our destination (under Radar control) we were passed to the approach control of our alternate! it was then that we realised there was a problem. The approach controller had apparently been informed that we had changed our destination! at no stage did we state this -
i can only think that the French controller passed the information onto the relevant controllers. But at no stage did any controller confirm that we wanted to divert. In my short experience i can see this happening again. it would be interesting to hear of similar language problems within Class A airspace!
anyway - i'm glad i've got that off my chest! a professional European sky?
RA
Yesterday i experienced a situation which can only be described as a complete breakdown in communication. Half through French airspace we were speaking to a Radar controller and requested weather for our destination and alternate. For some bizaare reason (which can only be explained by the controllers poor understanding of basic ICAO RT) he misundestood that we wanted to change our destination! When we explained a second time that we were only requesting weather, we thought we had solved this 'small' understanding.
Little did we know that the problem would escalate! We there passed passed to Swiss Radar - and nothing mentioned about a change of routing or destination....
Later we were passed to Milan and began our approach into our destination (or what we thought was our destination!). We then got quite an unusual routing- however we questioned this routing and assured that it was correct! - we assumed that we were being radar vectored for a shorter routing (Our commercial alternate is around 35miles east of our destination). when we passed 20 miles to the east of our destination (under Radar control) we were passed to the approach control of our alternate! it was then that we realised there was a problem. The approach controller had apparently been informed that we had changed our destination! at no stage did we state this -
i can only think that the French controller passed the information onto the relevant controllers. But at no stage did any controller confirm that we wanted to divert. In my short experience i can see this happening again. it would be interesting to hear of similar language problems within Class A airspace!
anyway - i'm glad i've got that off my chest! a professional European sky?
RA
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Half through French airspace we were speaking to a Radar controller and requested weather for our destination and alternate.
2) Don't bother in future - dial up the relevant VOLMET on box 2 and wait until it's in range - a far easier option
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Yes, correct!
but this is exactly what we did - used the standard 4 letter code for the request (at no stage did we state destination or alternate)
And as for the volmet - its all well and good but i would much rather, and company SOP states that the approach should be fully briefed 100nm from TOD. It is much safer in my opinion to get weather early and prepare for an approach where the TAF forcasts FOG and vis below 1000m. - which was the case yesterday and we always get early descent through the alps...
It is not good practice in my opinion to brief to set up and brief for an approach during descent through the Alps! I would of course use volmet if practicle rather than asking Radar controllers.
RA
but this is exactly what we did - used the standard 4 letter code for the request (at no stage did we state destination or alternate)
And as for the volmet - its all well and good but i would much rather, and company SOP states that the approach should be fully briefed 100nm from TOD. It is much safer in my opinion to get weather early and prepare for an approach where the TAF forcasts FOG and vis below 1000m. - which was the case yesterday and we always get early descent through the alps...
It is not good practice in my opinion to brief to set up and brief for an approach during descent through the Alps! I would of course use volmet if practicle rather than asking Radar controllers.
RA
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Yup, we all know that in an ideal world everyone in aviation - and lots of other businesses too - spoke the same language, whether it's English or whatever. But it's not an ideal world. And it's kinda easy for us native English speakers to expect everyone to speak our language.
Pilots tell ATC that they want to change their plans every day - maybe a change of destination is unusual, but it's not unheard of by any means. Of course the French controller passed on what he thought you wanted - what do you expect him to do? Do you really want controllers to double-check all your flightplan details every time you change sector?
You had a bad experience. It's unfortunate. But how you deal with it is about being professional.
And everyone has to recognise that it's not a perfect world and be alert to potential misunderstandings. Chalk yesterday up to experience and learn from it. Because sadly, in 30 years when you are showing the ropes to someone else who is new to commercial flying, there will be similar things that happen - perhaps not language issues, but something! It's just life.
Pilots tell ATC that they want to change their plans every day - maybe a change of destination is unusual, but it's not unheard of by any means. Of course the French controller passed on what he thought you wanted - what do you expect him to do? Do you really want controllers to double-check all your flightplan details every time you change sector?
You had a bad experience. It's unfortunate. But how you deal with it is about being professional.
And everyone has to recognise that it's not a perfect world and be alert to potential misunderstandings. Chalk yesterday up to experience and learn from it. Because sadly, in 30 years when you are showing the ropes to someone else who is new to commercial flying, there will be similar things that happen - perhaps not language issues, but something! It's just life.
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OK, i've calmed down a little now.. Just had to get it off my chest..
i'll take it on the chin - try and look at the experience as positive
looking forward to some interesting experiences ahead....
i'll take it on the chin - try and look at the experience as positive
looking forward to some interesting experiences ahead....
More than just an ATCO
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Years ago it was normal to give a clearance to destination via route etc. on entering an FIR. It's too busy to do that now, however the introduction of Data Links should help solve this.
If this is your most "interesting" experience in your career consider yourself lucky.
If this is your most "interesting" experience in your career consider yourself lucky.
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When south of Paris call Geneva Information on 126.35. The very helpful ladies/gentlemen on the other end will tell you wx for anywhere you want. Very useful if you don't fancy listening to the veerrry sloow Italian volmets or if the wx you want isn't on a volmet. Only open in daylight hours though.
Well, I think spitoon is way off the mark. Personally, I think that if an ATCO (who IS required to have a good command of the English language) misunderstands a simple request for weather as a wish to divert, there's no excuse, he needs his ar$e kicked! If I were you, RISK AVERSE , I'd get your company to send a report to the French authorities and get them to pull the tapes.
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I can echo what El Nino mentions. If north of Paris you are welcome to call the London Flight Information service as it has the full actuals and tafs for all the european airfields, it just requires the ICAO designator. It takes about 10-15 seconds to receive it and the service is available H24. I use the service all the time when flying instead of listening to Volmet as I am out of the loop for less time.
WX
Interesting points about obtaining Wx info whilst airborne. Could I ask RISK AVERSE if his aircraft is fitted with ACARS? Whilst we are requested to not "overuse" the system, we do have the ability to call up TAFS/Metars where it is felt to be beneficial. It has the added advantage of not taking one of the crew out of the loop for any length of time and you get a printout which can be studied at leisure.......
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From what i know, by next year or 07 all pilots and controllers have to undergo an aviation english course to ensure the obvious.
ICAO rule pending, or something like that. There are a few colleges setting up 'aviation english courses' down this end of the globe; hoping to cash in on the Asian market. Maybe get a few kiwis to do it too
I still chuckle every time they read back FL360...
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It works the other way too of course. I remember seeing a documentary on JFK controllers and was amazed at how anybody could understand what they were saying they were talking so fast, and I'm a native speaker! To be fair though all the pilots seemed to pick up everything on the first attempt and relayed it back to the controllers almost just as fast!
Credit to all you guys - both controllers and pilots, you make a complex job seem very easy to a mere enthusiast like myself!
Credit to all you guys - both controllers and pilots, you make a complex job seem very easy to a mere enthusiast like myself!
