"standard Speeds"
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ukatco_535
A healthy interchange of opinion, good to air these ideas.
Alas, the banana-skin moment has occurred. The first lines in Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 [MATS 1] were designed to cover those rare, unique and unforeseen sets of circumstances that may not be covered by the greater content; they are not intended to endorse the parochial working practices or method of operations [MOPS] of an entire ATC unit otherwise the extrapolation of that idea countrywide would lead to confusion and mayhem.
MATS 1 applies to all ATC units no matter how big or small. MATS 2 [local instructions] are meant to clarify, expand and enhance the interpretation of MATS1 at individual unit level....MATS 2 is not meant to replace MATS 1, neither should it contain or endorse peculiar or non-standard phraseology.
I can see where this has come from...I've come across it many times.....one slick guy adopts his/her personal MOPS and teaches it to his/her trainee who teaches it to their trainee....the cascade effect. To protect against this, Swanwick have put in place a strict regime of annual competency checking by a team of dedicated and thorough Local Competency Examiners [LCE's] which includes close scrutiny of sample R/T tapes; this has ensured that service delivery of the highest standard is maintained.
These posts are read by a wider ATC audience and I thought it worthy of a mention.
Unfortunately "big-unit" elitism has resulted in some variations in service delivery....here is a simple example:
Regional airport ATC give threshold elevation even though it does not change and is printed on the charts, and even though most of the pilots are in and out several times a day; but at metropolis international jet-port that handles traffic from all round the world I can't recall that information being passed....so it is obviously not that vital.
On a positive and friendly note....if you wish to use a particular set of words or phraseology that is unique to your unit and may be ambiguous.....seek approval from SRG to publish both the phrase and its intended meaning so that "brownstar" and others will never have to ask again.
Alas, the banana-skin moment has occurred. The first lines in Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 [MATS 1] were designed to cover those rare, unique and unforeseen sets of circumstances that may not be covered by the greater content; they are not intended to endorse the parochial working practices or method of operations [MOPS] of an entire ATC unit otherwise the extrapolation of that idea countrywide would lead to confusion and mayhem.
MATS 1 applies to all ATC units no matter how big or small. MATS 2 [local instructions] are meant to clarify, expand and enhance the interpretation of MATS1 at individual unit level....MATS 2 is not meant to replace MATS 1, neither should it contain or endorse peculiar or non-standard phraseology.
I can see where this has come from...I've come across it many times.....one slick guy adopts his/her personal MOPS and teaches it to his/her trainee who teaches it to their trainee....the cascade effect. To protect against this, Swanwick have put in place a strict regime of annual competency checking by a team of dedicated and thorough Local Competency Examiners [LCE's] which includes close scrutiny of sample R/T tapes; this has ensured that service delivery of the highest standard is maintained.
These posts are read by a wider ATC audience and I thought it worthy of a mention.
Unfortunately "big-unit" elitism has resulted in some variations in service delivery....here is a simple example:
Regional airport ATC give threshold elevation even though it does not change and is printed on the charts, and even though most of the pilots are in and out several times a day; but at metropolis international jet-port that handles traffic from all round the world I can't recall that information being passed....so it is obviously not that vital.
On a positive and friendly note....if you wish to use a particular set of words or phraseology that is unique to your unit and may be ambiguous.....seek approval from SRG to publish both the phrase and its intended meaning so that "brownstar" and others will never have to ask again.
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with a lot of your post; having been both sides of the mic in a professional context for a long time.
I am glad that Swanwick have a strict regime to check standards - after all it is an SRG requirement. We have almost exactly the same procedure at TC; except that we have tape samples every six months i.e. twice yearly.
I still challenge you to that fact that you will regularly use non standard phraseology yourself
I can guarantee that regardless of what phraseology someone uses, there will always be ambiguity, as there are so many pilots out there who do not have English as thier first language.
Laudable as using the correct phraseology is, it does not cover every eventuality, and you have to adapt phrases to suit (I am NOT talking about the use of 'standard speed' here, just in general).
I think if you took a poll of all the pilots and ATCOs you will find that the sensible ones who are more bothered about getting the job done just want to be told what to do or given the information. If that is in plain english then so be it.
Regarding the regional airport giving the threshold elevation along with the QNH - it certainly used to be a STANDARD laid down procedure. This was because not all aircraft using these regional airports are used to landing on the QNH. It comes as a nasty shock to these pilots when the runway hits the aircraft earlier than expected. Not having flown professionaly for a while, I am not sure if it is still a standard procedure, whether that be in MATS PT1 or 2, and frankly, I don't really care as I work area - I will leave that to the airport professionals as I do not pretend to know what their exact rules are.
Swanwick has a totally different role from TC and uses speed in a different way (which is probably why we get chucked stuff travelling too fast so often!) - maybe you should take into consideration other ATC units responsibilities before talking about large unit elitism (or was that self criticism of the large elitist unit that you work for?!?) - again, an appreciation of the 'bigger picture' that sadly more and more in the aviation industry lacks these days.
I am glad that Swanwick have a strict regime to check standards - after all it is an SRG requirement. We have almost exactly the same procedure at TC; except that we have tape samples every six months i.e. twice yearly.
I still challenge you to that fact that you will regularly use non standard phraseology yourself
I can guarantee that regardless of what phraseology someone uses, there will always be ambiguity, as there are so many pilots out there who do not have English as thier first language.
Laudable as using the correct phraseology is, it does not cover every eventuality, and you have to adapt phrases to suit (I am NOT talking about the use of 'standard speed' here, just in general).
I think if you took a poll of all the pilots and ATCOs you will find that the sensible ones who are more bothered about getting the job done just want to be told what to do or given the information. If that is in plain english then so be it.
Regarding the regional airport giving the threshold elevation along with the QNH - it certainly used to be a STANDARD laid down procedure. This was because not all aircraft using these regional airports are used to landing on the QNH. It comes as a nasty shock to these pilots when the runway hits the aircraft earlier than expected. Not having flown professionaly for a while, I am not sure if it is still a standard procedure, whether that be in MATS PT1 or 2, and frankly, I don't really care as I work area - I will leave that to the airport professionals as I do not pretend to know what their exact rules are.
Swanwick has a totally different role from TC and uses speed in a different way (which is probably why we get chucked stuff travelling too fast so often!) - maybe you should take into consideration other ATC units responsibilities before talking about large unit elitism (or was that self criticism of the large elitist unit that you work for?!?) - again, an appreciation of the 'bigger picture' that sadly more and more in the aviation industry lacks these days.
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ukatco_535
Please keep digging the hole....I haven't laughed [or cried] so much for ages.......now we have reference to lower standard pilots who don't know how to find the runway; foreign pilots who can't understand English; and naughty area controllers chucking aircraft too fast.
Astonishingly I receive regular compliments from pilots who remark on my clear and concise R/T delivery.
Go on....your turn....tell us you can walk on water.
Astonishingly I receive regular compliments from pilots who remark on my clear and concise R/T delivery.
Go on....your turn....tell us you can walk on water.
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You're not worth it mate, by your tone you are obviously of the opinion that you can walk on water. I doubt very much if pilots remark on your clear and concise RT. You work at Swanwick?? Surely there is not the time at such a busy unit for such non standard niceties??
This is the last I can be bothered to reply to you, as I realise I am not worthy.
I did not say pilots could not find the runway, or that they did not understand english - I hope you interpret the laws of ATC better than you interpret written English. God help any pilots who happen to be under your control when you use the rules to their fullest to get the job done - I am just glad I no longer fly professionally.
And 'naughty' Area controllers handing over a/c too fast (which you claimed a couple of posts ago you guys NEVER did) can be dangerous - if you do not understand why, visit another unit and see what your colleagues do.
In fact, get a life and get an idea of what other people in Air Traffic do.
I look foward to Oct 2007 when i can witness at first hand such an exemplary controller in action. I will PM you nearer that date to find out when you are on watch, I can obviously learn a lot from you - your students must be blessed to have such a perfect and humble OJTI
This is the last I can be bothered to reply to you, as I realise I am not worthy.
I did not say pilots could not find the runway, or that they did not understand english - I hope you interpret the laws of ATC better than you interpret written English. God help any pilots who happen to be under your control when you use the rules to their fullest to get the job done - I am just glad I no longer fly professionally.
And 'naughty' Area controllers handing over a/c too fast (which you claimed a couple of posts ago you guys NEVER did) can be dangerous - if you do not understand why, visit another unit and see what your colleagues do.
In fact, get a life and get an idea of what other people in Air Traffic do.
I look foward to Oct 2007 when i can witness at first hand such an exemplary controller in action. I will PM you nearer that date to find out when you are on watch, I can obviously learn a lot from you - your students must be blessed to have such a perfect and humble OJTI
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I totally agree with ukatco_535, 055166k I think you're a p**ck!
This debate would not be necessary if Swanwick were not obsessed with speed control. If en-route used radar headings to seperate aircraft and let all the aircraft fly at whatever speed they wanted everyone would be much happier. When I get handed a load of planes that have been speeded i'll say there is 'no speed restriction' or 'standard speed' or '250 kts by the speed limit point' or 'resume normal speed' or whichever associated phrase comes into my head first.
If you speak to Heathrow approach the only time they want aircraft steamed into Lam is on Easterlies with no delay, sector 13/14 are not in a position to judge that.
This debate would not be necessary if Swanwick were not obsessed with speed control. If en-route used radar headings to seperate aircraft and let all the aircraft fly at whatever speed they wanted everyone would be much happier. When I get handed a load of planes that have been speeded i'll say there is 'no speed restriction' or 'standard speed' or '250 kts by the speed limit point' or 'resume normal speed' or whichever associated phrase comes into my head first.
If you speak to Heathrow approach the only time they want aircraft steamed into Lam is on Easterlies with no delay, sector 13/14 are not in a position to judge that.
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Revolution............what a pile of sh1te.
Having been valid in TC for over three years on TC North before TC east existed and valid on CLN for the past 7 years I think I know what sort of speeds TC are expecting and can look at the delays and holding situation and judge accordingly.
You have no idea of the experience or lack of experience of the controllers on the surrounding sectors.
You may have been valid en-route aswell but i doubt it.
If you really want all traffic on radar headings doing their own speeds then you can have it, but expect 5 heathrow inbounds abreast at regular intervals, 3 gatwicks abreast, SS and GW abreast. GET THE PICTURE.
Do you know the speeds that the BA EHAM and BMA EBBR to LL call on the frequency doing?
Well over 320KTS occasionally 340KTS. Do you want them doing that when they invariably are going in the hold? No F@@@@ng way!
When holding at BRASO do you know what the first thing traffic wants to do when you tell them to hold at BRASO? Every DLH wants to reduce to 250KTS at the first oppurtunity. We have to use speed control otherwise everything will be doing want the hell it wants and where@s the CONTROL in that?
I can't wait for 2007, bring your headset throug and show us how to do it.
Upper winds is another variable but you wouldn't know about that.
Having been valid in TC for over three years on TC North before TC east existed and valid on CLN for the past 7 years I think I know what sort of speeds TC are expecting and can look at the delays and holding situation and judge accordingly.
You have no idea of the experience or lack of experience of the controllers on the surrounding sectors.
You may have been valid en-route aswell but i doubt it.
If you really want all traffic on radar headings doing their own speeds then you can have it, but expect 5 heathrow inbounds abreast at regular intervals, 3 gatwicks abreast, SS and GW abreast. GET THE PICTURE.
Do you know the speeds that the BA EHAM and BMA EBBR to LL call on the frequency doing?
Well over 320KTS occasionally 340KTS. Do you want them doing that when they invariably are going in the hold? No F@@@@ng way!
When holding at BRASO do you know what the first thing traffic wants to do when you tell them to hold at BRASO? Every DLH wants to reduce to 250KTS at the first oppurtunity. We have to use speed control otherwise everything will be doing want the hell it wants and where@s the CONTROL in that?
I can't wait for 2007, bring your headset throug and show us how to do it.
Upper winds is another variable but you wouldn't know about that.
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thats crap and you know it.
why, then, when i have raised the point with my mates in tc do they say they would prefer traffic streamed on speeds rather than on headings?
the less number of tracks the less you have to monitor headings.
something you'll learn with experience after your balls have dropped
why, then, when i have raised the point with my mates in tc do they say they would prefer traffic streamed on speeds rather than on headings?
the less number of tracks the less you have to monitor headings.
something you'll learn with experience after your balls have dropped
Last edited by MancBoy; 9th Dec 2005 at 11:38.
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(In a very high pitched voice, as ball's haven't dropped)
I don't know who your mates are in TC but all the east people on the watch i'm on prefer headings to speed control, the beauty of a heading is you don't have to monitor it unlike speed control!
I don't know who your mates are in TC but all the east people on the watch i'm on prefer headings to speed control, the beauty of a heading is you don't have to monitor it unlike speed control!
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You're telling me that you don't monitor headings?
Wow you are great and unsafe!
My offer applies for you to come and have go and show us how to do it.
My mates in TC are all valid for 8+ years mainly on Y watch and are all respected OJTIs and LCEs so probably know what they are on about
Wow you are great and unsafe!
My offer applies for you to come and have go and show us how to do it.
My mates in TC are all valid for 8+ years mainly on Y watch and are all respected OJTIs and LCEs so probably know what they are on about
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MancBoy
I do not have any interaction with Swanwick from the east, but i do from the south. I will quite happily take aircraft either on parallel headings OR speed, the only thing I would say is I would like the traffic earlier.
It's not a case of I think i can do it better - it's a case of I have better tools at hand to do the separation (i.e. 3 miles separation and a radar that does not have to be wound out so far).
To my mind, if speed is used for separation great - as long as it is done properly. I have had aircraft handed over in a stream before with 10kt speed differentials - that is not adequate as the tolerance to which pilots are allowed to fly could mean that the aircraft behind is flying faster than the one in front!!!
As for A/C coming into my sector above 300kts, that is potentially much more dangerous than using the phrase 'standard speed' - especially when I only get it 10 or 15 miles away from the holding area . Unfortunately your colleague would seem to disagree.
Being valid at TC 10yrs ago bears no resemblance to being valid there today; in very much the same way that en route has changed so much in that period.
I beleve that one of the worst things that NATS could have done was to move en route to Swanwick then have such a long time frame before TC moves down. Neither sets of controllers has a true understanding of the others problems now; phone calls do not have the same effect as sitting in and watching counterparts work.
I know it is easy to visit swanwick or vice versa, but how many of us actively do it? I will admit, I don't. I have better things to do with time my off and there is no way the company or my watch will let me do it on watch time.
Roll on 2007!!
I do not have any interaction with Swanwick from the east, but i do from the south. I will quite happily take aircraft either on parallel headings OR speed, the only thing I would say is I would like the traffic earlier.
It's not a case of I think i can do it better - it's a case of I have better tools at hand to do the separation (i.e. 3 miles separation and a radar that does not have to be wound out so far).
To my mind, if speed is used for separation great - as long as it is done properly. I have had aircraft handed over in a stream before with 10kt speed differentials - that is not adequate as the tolerance to which pilots are allowed to fly could mean that the aircraft behind is flying faster than the one in front!!!
As for A/C coming into my sector above 300kts, that is potentially much more dangerous than using the phrase 'standard speed' - especially when I only get it 10 or 15 miles away from the holding area . Unfortunately your colleague would seem to disagree.
Being valid at TC 10yrs ago bears no resemblance to being valid there today; in very much the same way that en route has changed so much in that period.
I beleve that one of the worst things that NATS could have done was to move en route to Swanwick then have such a long time frame before TC moves down. Neither sets of controllers has a true understanding of the others problems now; phone calls do not have the same effect as sitting in and watching counterparts work.
I know it is easy to visit swanwick or vice versa, but how many of us actively do it? I will admit, I don't. I have better things to do with time my off and there is no way the company or my watch will let me do it on watch time.
Roll on 2007!!
Last edited by ukatco_535; 9th Dec 2005 at 15:46.
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Roll on 2007 indeed, I hope they improve the carpet between the two ops rooms as those doors are gonna be flapping once more.......
........I miss the sound of those doors
PS, with your excellent 'wound in' range why do the south TMA controllers find it so hard to get the outbounds closer than 10nm when paralleled off? At least we can manage that even if the speeds aren't working...
PPS I will admit that there are occasions where we transfer a/c 300kts+ and there are times where non-standard RTF is used, sorry 055166k but its fact, we do as does nearly every other controller NATS or not and pilots too. Food for thought, if we transfer an a/c unspeeded, then what speed could they be doing? I bet many will be 300kts+. When there is holding I do try and slow stuff down, but its not always possible, but thats our 'bigger picture' too.
........I miss the sound of those doors
PS, with your excellent 'wound in' range why do the south TMA controllers find it so hard to get the outbounds closer than 10nm when paralleled off? At least we can manage that even if the speeds aren't working...
PPS I will admit that there are occasions where we transfer a/c 300kts+ and there are times where non-standard RTF is used, sorry 055166k but its fact, we do as does nearly every other controller NATS or not and pilots too. Food for thought, if we transfer an a/c unspeeded, then what speed could they be doing? I bet many will be 300kts+. When there is holding I do try and slow stuff down, but its not always possible, but thats our 'bigger picture' too.
Last edited by 5milesbaby; 14th Dec 2005 at 14:57.
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5milesbaby
We have a/c all over the place, because to climb them we have to vector them round stacks, fit them from several different airports and point them in the right direction etc etc. Meanwhile we are vectoring the inbounds to avoid them etc so we can cross levels.
Our airspace is limited. If we were to then try to make it all very tidy and bring all the aircraft back into a couple of streams on parallel heading with say 8 miles spacing, it would take more time than we have got as we would be tweaking away at the headings until it was just right. (Do you want us to have control of A/C east of Dover??!!)
We climb them and sort them out from the inbounds, with a multitude of crossing tracks in a small bit of airspace, then hand them on to you for you to do what you are very good at - streaming them and getting them in exactly the correct position.
It's not ideal - any ATCO worth their salt would want to hand off the perfect traffic set up, if only for their own pride if nothing else, but unfortunately, time and space does not permit.
What we all fail to remember and appreciate at times is that LACC and TC have very different problems regarding their task (which is also very different within the confines of providing the safe, orderly and expeditious service). Neither set of controllers hands a perfect traffic presentation to the other. However, I believe that we could do some things better without a question, if we knew the problems we each faced..... which should be easier to appreciate when the two units are at Swanwick.
We have a/c all over the place, because to climb them we have to vector them round stacks, fit them from several different airports and point them in the right direction etc etc. Meanwhile we are vectoring the inbounds to avoid them etc so we can cross levels.
Our airspace is limited. If we were to then try to make it all very tidy and bring all the aircraft back into a couple of streams on parallel heading with say 8 miles spacing, it would take more time than we have got as we would be tweaking away at the headings until it was just right. (Do you want us to have control of A/C east of Dover??!!)
We climb them and sort them out from the inbounds, with a multitude of crossing tracks in a small bit of airspace, then hand them on to you for you to do what you are very good at - streaming them and getting them in exactly the correct position.
It's not ideal - any ATCO worth their salt would want to hand off the perfect traffic set up, if only for their own pride if nothing else, but unfortunately, time and space does not permit.
What we all fail to remember and appreciate at times is that LACC and TC have very different problems regarding their task (which is also very different within the confines of providing the safe, orderly and expeditious service). Neither set of controllers hands a perfect traffic presentation to the other. However, I believe that we could do some things better without a question, if we knew the problems we each faced..... which should be easier to appreciate when the two units are at Swanwick.
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ukatco_535, please answer a couple of questions:
1. Were you posted to West Drayton before the area side moved to Swanwick?
2: Have you ever been in the Swanwick ops room since it went live?
I'm not leading up to an arguement with these, just simply asking as it seems from our side that the TC attitude has changed since we left and the general thought as to why is that the newer staff haven't ever had the pleasure of having an angry face tap their shoulder from the next room wanting a "coffee to talk about things". I've been there several times when the doors are sent-a-flapping and just know they are making a bee-line for me, it will be good when eventually it can happen again as so much is learnt in such short conversations.
PS do you realise that when CBA1 is active/restrictive we only have a 5nm wide airway at KONAN? Thats what I call limited.
1. Were you posted to West Drayton before the area side moved to Swanwick?
2: Have you ever been in the Swanwick ops room since it went live?
I'm not leading up to an arguement with these, just simply asking as it seems from our side that the TC attitude has changed since we left and the general thought as to why is that the newer staff haven't ever had the pleasure of having an angry face tap their shoulder from the next room wanting a "coffee to talk about things". I've been there several times when the doors are sent-a-flapping and just know they are making a bee-line for me, it will be good when eventually it can happen again as so much is learnt in such short conversations.
PS do you realise that when CBA1 is active/restrictive we only have a 5nm wide airway at KONAN? Thats what I call limited.
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5miles, i doubt whether our friend knows where cba1 is!
ukatco
when i was in tc, heathrow was almost full to capacity then as it is now. I used to operate the LAM stack up to 170 and then CLN did the rest.
after moving in to AC, I've done it from the otherside and even held at LOGAN up to 360, something you can only imagine.
I know how LL holds operate and what they expect!
Yes things change, SS has got crazy but LL has remained the same.
When you boys come down we'll be all on the same watch so I can feel an extension coming your way, aswell as us coming back to the TC sectors we know and love so well
ukatco
when i was in tc, heathrow was almost full to capacity then as it is now. I used to operate the LAM stack up to 170 and then CLN did the rest.
after moving in to AC, I've done it from the otherside and even held at LOGAN up to 360, something you can only imagine.
I know how LL holds operate and what they expect!
Yes things change, SS has got crazy but LL has remained the same.
When you boys come down we'll be all on the same watch so I can feel an extension coming your way, aswell as us coming back to the TC sectors we know and love so well
Last edited by MancBoy; 14th Dec 2005 at 18:00.
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5 miles baby,
in order
yes,
no
yes,
I also know that we don't bother worrying about CBA1 being active anymore - we are supposed to vector everything north side and you are not supposed to tell us if it is active.
(I use the first suppose in italics because I have seen several people over the past few days who still vector well to the south.)
And yes, I believe the door flapping will be a 2 way thing!!
Mancboy,
I think you will find that LL is busier now, it's just the peak times are longer - as you are no doubt aware of because you have to deal with the inbounds before we get them.
And please think before you post - a comment like "I doubt he knows where CBA1 is, is not constructive). Holding up to those levels is not 'something' I can only imagine - I have seen it in action many times, although I do not do TC East.
I kind of hoped that in you you were above pithy remarks and were sensible. You think we do things wrong and vice versa. Silly remarks like that only prevent people from exchanging views. Only by people exchanging views will things change for the better.
As for cross training, I doubt very much whether people will cross train onto major sectors, either way, as there is an issue with currency.
However there may be the opportunity for people to cross train onto one of the 'quieter' sectors. Not that there are many of them in either of our rooms nowadays!
in order
yes,
no
yes,
I also know that we don't bother worrying about CBA1 being active anymore - we are supposed to vector everything north side and you are not supposed to tell us if it is active.
(I use the first suppose in italics because I have seen several people over the past few days who still vector well to the south.)
And yes, I believe the door flapping will be a 2 way thing!!
Mancboy,
I think you will find that LL is busier now, it's just the peak times are longer - as you are no doubt aware of because you have to deal with the inbounds before we get them.
And please think before you post - a comment like "I doubt he knows where CBA1 is, is not constructive). Holding up to those levels is not 'something' I can only imagine - I have seen it in action many times, although I do not do TC East.
I kind of hoped that in you you were above pithy remarks and were sensible. You think we do things wrong and vice versa. Silly remarks like that only prevent people from exchanging views. Only by people exchanging views will things change for the better.
As for cross training, I doubt very much whether people will cross train onto major sectors, either way, as there is an issue with currency.
However there may be the opportunity for people to cross train onto one of the 'quieter' sectors. Not that there are many of them in either of our rooms nowadays!
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uk you're way too easy to wind up!
i've been around long enough to know the score between ac and tc.
things will definitely improve when we're all together.
i look forward to exchanging views.
i often try to get tc's opinion on the telephone but they are so often straight on the defensive that it's difficult sometimes.
i've been around long enough to know the score between ac and tc.
things will definitely improve when we're all together.
i look forward to exchanging views.
i often try to get tc's opinion on the telephone but they are so often straight on the defensive that it's difficult sometimes.
