Air Traffic Controllers - a loss of skills?
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Gonzo, your findings surprise me not at all. Could have, and in fact did, predict that a few years back at CATC when they first started dicking with the courses in the interests of cutting costs and increasing the throughput rate. Super-duper technological skills are all very well but, as our American friends would say, if it all goes tits up ........
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My own thoughts on this thread are, that anyone who passes the courses have satisfied the powers that be, and once validated at there specific unit should then have the ability to control that specific traffic.
Everyone will agree that in this profession you are constantly learning and evolving your skills.
I believe that the 'class G, unknown', unpredictable nature of traffic would be a massive challenge for alot of the more recent controllers or even experienced controllers used to professional pilots.
likewise, the sheer volume of traffic controlled inside class A or even D could be a challenge to reciprocal controllers.
I know of some purely radar controllers do not understand how procedural control works, and therefore the limitations that controllers providing an approach control service have.
One thing I have learnt in my limited years of controlling. There is no substitute grabbing a fam flight (inside or outside CAS). Inviting ab-initio pilots to your unit (biscuits essential). Basically trying to appreciate each others skills or limitations, whether based on equipment or experience.
I don't believe you can treat this as 'just a job'. I will always grab every opportunity to experience a pilots point of view, or even another controllers perspective at an adjacent unit.
Few... knackered now
Everyone will agree that in this profession you are constantly learning and evolving your skills.
I believe that the 'class G, unknown', unpredictable nature of traffic would be a massive challenge for alot of the more recent controllers or even experienced controllers used to professional pilots.
likewise, the sheer volume of traffic controlled inside class A or even D could be a challenge to reciprocal controllers.
I know of some purely radar controllers do not understand how procedural control works, and therefore the limitations that controllers providing an approach control service have.
One thing I have learnt in my limited years of controlling. There is no substitute grabbing a fam flight (inside or outside CAS). Inviting ab-initio pilots to your unit (biscuits essential). Basically trying to appreciate each others skills or limitations, whether based on equipment or experience.
I don't believe you can treat this as 'just a job'. I will always grab every opportunity to experience a pilots point of view, or even another controllers perspective at an adjacent unit.
Few... knackered now
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ATC Skills Loss
Hi NewModelAtc..I am quite keen to get a copy of your paper on Automation in ATC. Is there any way u can forward to me? Many thanks and greetings from Malaysian ATC.
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Personally, I see a lot of differences in the new controllers, (few though they may be), and the guys I worked with 25 years ago. When I hired on, most every approach controller had experience working non-radar. Many were ex-military, some with time in SE Asia, where having more than one emergency in progress was not unusual at all. Almost all had extensive jumpseat or piot experience.
I now work with controllers now who have never worked non-radar, never done an actual ASR approach, never been in the jumpseat of an airliner or flown in a light aircraft; and, fortunately, never been involved with a fatal accident. The problem is they seem to believe they never will. Hope they're right.
I now work with controllers now who have never worked non-radar, never done an actual ASR approach, never been in the jumpseat of an airliner or flown in a light aircraft; and, fortunately, never been involved with a fatal accident. The problem is they seem to believe they never will. Hope they're right.
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It's my belief that new controllers coming through the NATS pileline have less knowledge thatn previously.
As was alluded to earlier, there is no real concept of the workload of other ATCO disciplines i.e. a new tower only controller does not understand the implications his or her actions may have with an area controller and vice versa.
This is partly due to the streamlining (management speak)/ penny pinching(common sense speak) attitude to the structure of the new courses.
NATS is a business - however our primary aim is the safe flow of air traffic - that is all that matters at the end of the day. Having an ATCO at one end of the system who through ignorance, overloads (or contributes to an overload) of an ATCO down the line causing a safety incident, is not complying with our primary business/ethic aim.
Yes we have to save money, but cutting courses at the college only serves to increase the workload of OJTIs at the units, who are now getting more people to train who should not have got to a unit in the firstplace.
It is the job of the college to separate the wheat from the chaff - and the instructors at the college need a robust course structure and an management with a backbone to allow them to do this.
If we need to save money, why do we not look at some of the (hundreds) of inefficient office workers. As frontline ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs we are being pushed to be more efficient with increased workloads, yet we have a recruiting/HR unit that cannot even check the veracity of advertisements for new ATCOs ('pressurised environment'), as well as all the other inefficiencies.
At least now with interviews we have ATCOs sitting in with HR so they can hear the applicant all the way through the interview and then overrule HR if they think the applicant is good or bad. That at least is a step in the right direction.
As was alluded to earlier, there is no real concept of the workload of other ATCO disciplines i.e. a new tower only controller does not understand the implications his or her actions may have with an area controller and vice versa.
This is partly due to the streamlining (management speak)/ penny pinching(common sense speak) attitude to the structure of the new courses.
NATS is a business - however our primary aim is the safe flow of air traffic - that is all that matters at the end of the day. Having an ATCO at one end of the system who through ignorance, overloads (or contributes to an overload) of an ATCO down the line causing a safety incident, is not complying with our primary business/ethic aim.
Yes we have to save money, but cutting courses at the college only serves to increase the workload of OJTIs at the units, who are now getting more people to train who should not have got to a unit in the firstplace.
It is the job of the college to separate the wheat from the chaff - and the instructors at the college need a robust course structure and an management with a backbone to allow them to do this.
If we need to save money, why do we not look at some of the (hundreds) of inefficient office workers. As frontline ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs we are being pushed to be more efficient with increased workloads, yet we have a recruiting/HR unit that cannot even check the veracity of advertisements for new ATCOs ('pressurised environment'), as well as all the other inefficiencies.
At least now with interviews we have ATCOs sitting in with HR so they can hear the applicant all the way through the interview and then overrule HR if they think the applicant is good or bad. That at least is a step in the right direction.
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Originally Posted by Lon More
Also the selection process itself. See some of the links here, people not really asking for details of the job, only, "How do I pass the tests?"
...When it'll be the right time, I'm sure those people will ask a lot questions and details to those who have many years of experience as ATCO'S...
Anyways, I was thinking why many countries do not require aeronautical backgrounds to partecipate at the recruitment test(Eurocontrol in Holland and ENAV in Italy just to make an example)..I think it's because they understood that having aeronautical backgrounds doesn't necessary mean that you'll be a good ATC or that you'll have the right aptitude to face this demanding job.. of course, the school will be much easier if u already studied air traffic concepts in high school or college but I don't think they are looking for ready made ATCO'S..what's the point of doing a two year course then?? Why wouldn't a person who graduated in electronic engineering or computer sciences be a good ATCO?? I think they are looking for people who have good logic thinking, good memory,fast and accurate workers, excellent decision-making people, and people able to concentrate under a lot of stress... I don' t think that just people with aeronautical backgrounds have these qualities...
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Fabrifx,
I don't think anyone here would propose only recruiting candidates who have encyclopaedic knowldge of aviation. The concern here is that the training courses those candidates undertake once recruited are not long enough to prepare the trainees adequately for 'real life'. In fact, at a basic level, your post supports that argument: We no longer recruit exclusively those with background in, and knowledge of, aviation, and the 'real life' job is only getting busier and more complex, so surely that's an agrument for increasing the scope and length of training courses.
I think they are looking for people who have good logic thinking, good memory,fast and accurate workers, excellent decision-making people, and people able to concentrate under a lot of stress
Correct, and just because I'm feeling a bit mischievous, how does revising for arithmetic, spatial awareness tests and scenario questions before one's interview show any of the above traits? To be honest, I'd prefer it if NATS did not give out any examples or information regarding it's selection procedure. However, it is fairly obvious once you interview someone if they have read a bit of PPRuNe and think they can give the 'correct answer' to all the scenarios I throw at them! The words 'rope', 'hang', 'enough' and 'themselves' come to mind! 
I don't think anyone here would propose only recruiting candidates who have encyclopaedic knowldge of aviation. The concern here is that the training courses those candidates undertake once recruited are not long enough to prepare the trainees adequately for 'real life'. In fact, at a basic level, your post supports that argument: We no longer recruit exclusively those with background in, and knowledge of, aviation, and the 'real life' job is only getting busier and more complex, so surely that's an agrument for increasing the scope and length of training courses.
I think they are looking for people who have good logic thinking, good memory,fast and accurate workers, excellent decision-making people, and people able to concentrate under a lot of stress
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Originally Posted by Gonzo
Fabrifx,
The concern here is that the training courses those candidates undertake once recruited are not long enough to prepare the trainees adequately for 'real life'. In fact, at a basic level, your post supports that argument:
The concern here is that the training courses those candidates undertake once recruited are not long enough to prepare the trainees adequately for 'real life'. In fact, at a basic level, your post supports that argument:
Correct, and just because I'm feeling a bit mischievous, how does revising for arithmetic, spatial awareness tests and scenario questions before one's interview show any of the above traits?
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I do not want to say if you are right or wrong cause you know a lot more than me but at Eurocontrol for example, the course lasts at least 2 years and a half before obtaining the license as an advanced trainee air traffic controller.. I wouldn't know how to answer, but with your experience, you think it's not enough to prepare good ATCO's? I also know that in Italy the course lasts 15 months included the OJT training (you just do TWR/APP I think) and in this case I do believe that it isn't enough..
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Going back to something brought up earlier in this thread.
Surely the interview process should be effective in weeding out most of the $ hunters and leave people who, whilst they may not be 'aviation geeks', have more of an interest in a career.
Although I'm not a controller it seems sad that due to cost cutting, controllers are not being given a decent grounding and background before training commences. It would be nice if something wasn't all about the money for once.
Me personally, I'm applying second time around and would happily do the job for the same money I earn now. For me, if you can be happy in your job and proud of what you do, then you've got it made.
Surely the interview process should be effective in weeding out most of the $ hunters and leave people who, whilst they may not be 'aviation geeks', have more of an interest in a career.
Although I'm not a controller it seems sad that due to cost cutting, controllers are not being given a decent grounding and background before training commences. It would be nice if something wasn't all about the money for once.
Me personally, I'm applying second time around and would happily do the job for the same money I earn now. For me, if you can be happy in your job and proud of what you do, then you've got it made.
More than just an ATCO
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fabrifx, no, it was not directed at you. It is an unfortunate fact that there appears to be more and more emphasis being put on passing the exams to the detriment of actually being able to do the job, It seems to be getting worse recently to the extent that, just before I left, a person was promoted to a training expert position with less than five years experience. IMHO, that just about qualifies them to find the coffee machine
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When I joined NATS I had no aviation knowledge or experience. After Aerodrome 1 I did 15 hours flying, after Aerodrome 2 I did 30+ hours live R/T at EGCC tower, after Area 1 I did 30+ live R/T at EGCC area centre. These were important aspects of my training. They not only improved my skills and confidence but enthused me for the job.
People coming out of the college today have not had these experiences and are inevitably of a lesser standard, I feel this will lead to fewer validating.
I also think because they've never spoken to or even seen a real aircraft they have a laid back attitude towards the task in hand. They seem to have a kind of simulator attitude where it doesn't matter if we don't quite get 3 miles etc.
It busier than ever in the skies and validating is going to get more difficult yet we (NATS) seem to be giving the trainees less tools to take on the challenge.
People coming out of the college today have not had these experiences and are inevitably of a lesser standard, I feel this will lead to fewer validating.
I also think because they've never spoken to or even seen a real aircraft they have a laid back attitude towards the task in hand. They seem to have a kind of simulator attitude where it doesn't matter if we don't quite get 3 miles etc.
It busier than ever in the skies and validating is going to get more difficult yet we (NATS) seem to be giving the trainees less tools to take on the challenge.
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Great post REVOLUTION. Some of it bears repeating.
Particularly....
and....
Particularly....
When I joined NATS I had no aviation knowledge or experience. After Aerodrome 1 I did 15 hours flying, after Aerodrome 2 I did 30+ hours live R/T at EGCC tower, after Area 1 I did 30+ live R/T at EGCC area centre. These were important aspects of my training. They not only improved my skills and confidence but enthused me for the job.
I also think because they've never spoken to or even seen a real aircraft they have a laid back attitude towards the task in hand. They seem to have a kind of simulator attitude where it doesn't matter if we don't quite get 3 miles etc.
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Gonz,
Up until recently [single-skill streaming] EGLL got the pick of the litter of class sizes of 10 or so who had completed both Aerodrome and Berne's Marvellous Approach Course who were the survivors from a class of 36. These days you get the pick of the litter from 3 who have just done the Aerodrome Course ,usually from 4 who started it.
I'm afraid that as the population available for you to pick the EGLL trainees from has reduced, so has the quality. On the bright side, Swanwick got some cracking kids who would have done a great job in your tower [and probably wanted to be there too!]
Good news is that CATC will be running much bigger aerodrome courses over the coming few years, so you will get a bigger pool to choose from
berni - if I go over to my sister's this summer, fancy a pint?
edited for bad punctuation
Up until recently [single-skill streaming] EGLL got the pick of the litter of class sizes of 10 or so who had completed both Aerodrome and Berne's Marvellous Approach Course who were the survivors from a class of 36. These days you get the pick of the litter from 3 who have just done the Aerodrome Course ,usually from 4 who started it.
I'm afraid that as the population available for you to pick the EGLL trainees from has reduced, so has the quality. On the bright side, Swanwick got some cracking kids who would have done a great job in your tower [and probably wanted to be there too!]
Good news is that CATC will be running much bigger aerodrome courses over the coming few years, so you will get a bigger pool to choose from
berni - if I go over to my sister's this summer, fancy a pint?
edited for bad punctuation
Last edited by Dances with Boffins; 28th Jun 2006 at 10:51.
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DwB, yep I know exactly what you mean. For us, the APR course was a great selection tool, as it represented what we do far more effectively than the Aerodrome course. In fact, I'm down your way end of next week for the UTO's conference, talking about that very aspect!
Yes, 54 just about to start. How the heck are you guys going to manage with that number? Are there enough sims and instructors?
Yes, 54 just about to start. How the heck are you guys going to manage with that number? Are there enough sims and instructors?
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Double-decker classrooms and radars mate!
I have no idea, it might be interesting down here for the next few weeks. Maybe they are all really small...
Not that bad apparently. They will split the course into two loads of 17. The fact that it needs even numbers, of course....
I have no idea, it might be interesting down here for the next few weeks. Maybe they are all really small...Not that bad apparently. They will split the course into two loads of 17. The fact that it needs even numbers, of course....
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Originally Posted by Dances with Boffins
Double-decker classrooms and radars mate! I have no idea, it might be interesting down here for the next few weeks. Maybe they are all really small...
Not that bad apparently. They will split the course into two loads of 17. The fact that it needs even numbers, of course....
I have no idea, it might be interesting down here for the next few weeks. Maybe they are all really small...Not that bad apparently. They will split the course into two loads of 17. The fact that it needs even numbers, of course....
Seriously though, did they not try this "parallel courses" thing before a few years ago and it led to extensive holding on OJT before coming back to finish courses?!? Should be interesting this time round.
FB