7700 - listen to the sound of real fear
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
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I have some very serious concerns about even the thought that because an ATCO might have a PPL he/she could/would take it upon themselves to offer a pilot instruction on how to fly the aircraft!
Unless you get to instructor level and are able to maintain that level of competency then I suspect you might well do more harm than good (especially if you're not familiar with the aircraft type). And how far do you go? Single engine? Twin? Jet? Multi jet?
What do pilots think about this 'idea'?
My view, as someone who has handled dozens of 'emergencies' as an ATCO, is that the pilot should be sufficiently trained to fly solo before being let loose. ATC can (and do) help when they get lost or suffer other 'emergencies' but not to the extent of attempting to offer basic flying skills advice. I could easily imagine being sued for giving the wrong advice. Whereas I have no problem in contemplating any sort of prosecution for doing my professional job of controlling aircraft and giving assistance. I think assistance in flying the aircraft is WELL outside of the scope of ATC.
BD
Unless you get to instructor level and are able to maintain that level of competency then I suspect you might well do more harm than good (especially if you're not familiar with the aircraft type). And how far do you go? Single engine? Twin? Jet? Multi jet?
What do pilots think about this 'idea'?
My view, as someone who has handled dozens of 'emergencies' as an ATCO, is that the pilot should be sufficiently trained to fly solo before being let loose. ATC can (and do) help when they get lost or suffer other 'emergencies' but not to the extent of attempting to offer basic flying skills advice. I could easily imagine being sued for giving the wrong advice. Whereas I have no problem in contemplating any sort of prosecution for doing my professional job of controlling aircraft and giving assistance. I think assistance in flying the aircraft is WELL outside of the scope of ATC.
BD
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
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In listening to this tape, how do we know that the ATC Specialists advice was indeed correct?. If this aircraft had crashed would the ATC Specialist be sued for giving out this "advice"?. If this had happen in the UK would NATS protect its employees in court from subsequent legal action?. I think that we all know the answers to these questions. I think that it is in all our natures to try to help as much as possible a pilot in distress, particularly one as harrowing as this recording, but there are limits to our actions and responsibilities. I see no reason why ATCOs at the larger centres should have flight training as they do not deal with light aircraft, but the FISOs at ATC Centres should have flight training as a matter of course as they are more likely to deal with this kind of scenario.
...kids just carry striaght on because they already have 10000 hours on MS sim and you have nag them all the time to look out the window...
I spent some time simming before starting my PPL and basically flew on instruments for the first 5 hours of instruction. I was driving my instructor crazy, "look out of the damn window !". I was holding altitude at +-100 feet, perfect turns on instruments, etc. etc.
Have to admit that when doing normal turns, I still do that just as much using the artificial horizon as the real one. Shame on me.
However, when it came to instrument flight training (a couple of hours included in the PPL) it helped me a lot. I could fly for hours in foggled or real IMC. Also helped a lot when I took my night qualification.
Wasn't there a Canadian study that gave the average VFR pilot something like 90 seconds to live in after entering IMC ?
Perhaps PPL students should be encouraged to spend X hours in a simulator ?
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Jerricho,
Yes I do apologise about that comment. My point was that FISOs are statistically more likely to deal with that scenario that most ATCOs. In an ideal world we would all have ATPLs, but then we would have to be type rated!.I think a more realistic approach for ATCOs are fam flights and perhaps visits to simulators to see how the airline crews operate their "TRUCE".
Yes I do apologise about that comment. My point was that FISOs are statistically more likely to deal with that scenario that most ATCOs. In an ideal world we would all have ATPLs, but then we would have to be type rated!.I think a more realistic approach for ATCOs are fam flights and perhaps visits to simulators to see how the airline crews operate their "TRUCE".
I have taught several students who were flight sim addicts. Almost from the word go they could fly fairly accurately, ......in smooth air. Add moderate turblence into the equation and they rapidly fall apart as they are not accustomed to the disoriantation of vertigo. etc etc.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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When in PPL training, it was drumed into me about going into IMC. Also how/what to do to get out of it. Currently you only need 2hours of imc flight for you ppl, and all that is is a rate 1 turn to get out of imc. I think alot more imc flight should be taught in the PPL, i had a few extra lessons of it and it has helped me no end.
I have, however, never found myself in that situation (and i hope i wont) but i think that a few extra lessons of imc flight in the ppl could be the difference between life and death.
A sobering mp3 to listen to.
stue
I have, however, never found myself in that situation (and i hope i wont) but i think that a few extra lessons of imc flight in the ppl could be the difference between life and death.
A sobering mp3 to listen to.
stue
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Wow. Such a relief it worked out OK.
Hear hear to the congrats to ATC; even with my very limited experience, I've had enough Aaaaagh! moments -- all either self-inflicted or imagined --- to know how much difference that calm, friendly voice on the radio can make.
But hats off also to the pilot, for agreeing to the recording being promulgated.
Suggestion to Mods: Can this be copied to the Private Flying forum? (Don't know how these things work!) There are a lot of lessons here.
Hear hear to the congrats to ATC; even with my very limited experience, I've had enough Aaaaagh! moments -- all either self-inflicted or imagined --- to know how much difference that calm, friendly voice on the radio can make.
But hats off also to the pilot, for agreeing to the recording being promulgated.
Suggestion to Mods: Can this be copied to the Private Flying forum? (Don't know how these things work!) There are a lot of lessons here.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Definitely "Hats off" to the ATCO concerned. It can be extremely difficult to get through to someone in that degree of distress when you can speak to him or her face to face but it is very much more difficult when you can't and have to try to calm them from such a long distance. An excellent job and a great result.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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In the US you don't get any sort of training that would help you take care of something like that. You either are a pilot (on your own.) or get that sort of thing on your own from being instructed by someone who is a pilot and knows. Our formal training is very, very limited when it comes to emergencies and such...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Having listened to the recording, I reckon the guy was unbelievably lucky to get out of that one in one piece. However.....as an area ATCO, and I think a couple of posters have touched on this, I personally would have major concerns about giving flying instruction over the R/T.
Dont get me wrong, it obviously worked out fine in this individual case but society today is one of lightning-quick litigation unfortunately and had this incident had a different outcome, you can bet your behind that the ATCO would have been sued rotten.
It's really a difficult spot for the ATCO to be in as the pilot genuinely sounds like he's gonna crash. Human nature would be to help this guy in any way you can i.e give some a/c handling advice to the pilot but in the process, open youself up to a whole world of crap if it all goes horribly wrong. What lawyer can say if the advice you have given DID or DID NOT result in the a/c crashing??
I'm sorry to say but I would be inclined to let the guy fly (or attempt to fly) the plane and give him all the (legal!!) help I could. Sounds like a cop-out but I would like to know how many controllers out there would actually get involved in giving handling advice, experienced flying instructor or not for fear of legal reprisals????
SD
Dont get me wrong, it obviously worked out fine in this individual case but society today is one of lightning-quick litigation unfortunately and had this incident had a different outcome, you can bet your behind that the ATCO would have been sued rotten.
It's really a difficult spot for the ATCO to be in as the pilot genuinely sounds like he's gonna crash. Human nature would be to help this guy in any way you can i.e give some a/c handling advice to the pilot but in the process, open youself up to a whole world of crap if it all goes horribly wrong. What lawyer can say if the advice you have given DID or DID NOT result in the a/c crashing??
I'm sorry to say but I would be inclined to let the guy fly (or attempt to fly) the plane and give him all the (legal!!) help I could. Sounds like a cop-out but I would like to know how many controllers out there would actually get involved in giving handling advice, experienced flying instructor or not for fear of legal reprisals????
SD
